01-02-2003 21:23									#1
	Discussion: a doctrine for the defence of our cities. Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

There are two options:
1. The passive defence. Three spearmen, walls, behind rivers, preferably on hills, even Great Wall, and a mobile force reinforcing the garrisons under attack. Main drawbacks: does not protect the roads and improvements surrounding the cities, and costly (with the shields used for the Great Wall, how many units could be build?).
2. The active defence. One spearman and one archer or swordsman with barracks in every city, and a mobile force fighting intruders before they reach the cities.

I am convince of the efficiency of the option 2, but I would like a discussion on the subject before heavy decisions are made.

	01-02-2003 21:32									#2
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I would suggest the active defense myself, for frankly their is much better chance of success in defense with that system than with the other, for the counterattack in battle is what has time and time again saved us in our early history. Look at Santiago. We were on the defensive until the enemy wore itself down by attacking our spearmen. Then we unleashed the archers and the swordsmen, the warriors, and the Visigoth fell in great number, and the shedding of blood was like nothing seen before or after in history.

Secondly, the active defense allows more elbow room for a counter-offensive, so that we can quickly manuever good troops into enemy territory in case of war.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger

	01-02-2003 21:47									#3
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I prefer 2 too, but with the Great Wall if we can get it.

	01-02-2003 22:52									#4
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Doesn't matter which one, but Great Wall would be ideal to have either way. You simply can't tell me that the relatively low shield cost for DOUBLING the effectiveness of our city walls at the same time that ND and GoW have their UU's isn't worth it...

	01-02-2003 23:54									#5
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We clearly need a mix of the two, mostly because war will likely come as a surprise to us, before we are ready to organize a suitable counter attack. Our border cities must be prepared to hold off a siege to buy time for our mobile counter-attack forces to mass and strike.

But we know that our enemies will use units with a 3 movement, we must have mobile units ourself, using roads, to match their mobility.

--Togas

	02-02-2003 01:46									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos You simply can't tell me that the relatively low shield cost for DOUBLING the effectiveness of our city walls at the same time that ND and GoW have their UU's isn't worth it...

With a given amount of shields, I prefer build swordsmen and horses, because with walls and the Great Wall I cannot make preemptive attacks.

	02-02-2003 07:29									#7
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT With a given amount of shields, I prefer build swordsmen and horses, because with walls and the Great Wall I cannot make preemptive attacks.

Walls and the Great Wall do not PREVENT you from making pre-emptive attacks. What they do is make your cities so hard to conquer that the enemy (of necessity) will become bogged down in the attempt to lay a proper siege and give us opportunity to use whatever counter-attack forces we have developed to attack him while he is in the field.

You can have both cavalry for counter-attack AND good fortifications... it's not an either/or proposition...

I would expect city walls and AT A MINIMUM 2-3 spearmen/pikemen in each of our border cities (ideally 4), with a healthy force of swords+horsemen -> medinf+knights built afterward (increasingly built larger over time) to provide counter-attack and perhaps even build large enough to provide an effective assault force.

My point is that having city walls and the Great Wall will not HURT us, it can really only help us. City walls are incredibly cheap (only 20 shields) compared to their extreme value. The Great Wall is a relatively cheap wonder that, with the DOUBLING of our defenses, will more than be worth its price even if we have to sacrifice some swords and horsemen in the process.

Think about it...

Several Pikemen fortified behind Great Wall enhanced City Walls. That's what? 6.75 points each? Even spearmen are worth I think 4.5 points each behind those defenses. It would take god's own stack of Ansar Warriors and Riders to break 4 veteran pikemen worth 6.75 points each.

Then we can build a nice force of medieval inf and knights to go pummel the idiots in the field after their first attack bounces... because let's be realistic here... if we're being attacked by Chinese Riders or Arab Ansar Warriors, they move speed 3 and they'll probably attack our frontline cities in the intial sneak attack before we CAN counter-attack. Thus it's critical that those cities HOLD the initial rush so that we can counter-attack and wipe out their forces in the field while retaining the cities so that we don't lose all of their improvements or allow the cities themselves to be RAZED TO THE GROUND.

A counter-attack will do us a fat lot of good if we have 2-3 frontline cities razed to the ground in the initial rush... at that point, we'll already be doomed anyhow.

Seriously... making sure that initial rush of UUs bounces off is critical.

	02-02-2003 08:37									#8
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Senor Clemente is absolutely correct in this above statement. The Great Wall is no barrier to such a strike, and thus we should, at all costs, attempt it's construction when the time is right. O, the glory Spain will achieve as any horseman who rides against her will find his mount flattened against our masonry!

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger

	02-02-2003 13:15									#9
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The Stack of Doom of 3 moves units, if deterred to assault cities thanks to the walls, will not stop their attack. They will enter our land, destroy roads and improvments, meet our mobile force and destroy it, and then take all the time necessary to weaken our cities. This is why I think that we should not allow them to arrive near our cities IMHO.

And I am not sure as you are that we can have both. An expense is always a choice made at the detriment of another.

	02-02-2003 21:38									#10
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I think option 1 is just silly against human opponents.
We must be able to counter them at war. Option 2, agreed.


Ok, I remember I used such a Stack of Doom...
About 30 Numibian mercs(2.3.1), incl. Swordsmen. Pillaging, and fighting against my MP-opponent's counterattack was their first mission. He had used option 1, using few offensive units. So a counterattack worked considerably bad for him. Afterwards, my sieges worked somewhat fine. I gained two cities. (losing nearly all swordsmen and some Numibians, and we were then equally weak on offensive units). I meant it was time for peace then.

Anyway...
Opponents of Spain got the 3-speed mounted units (UU), and do make things more complicated... We need a plan to counter those too. Now, can someone recall when they will have those UUs ?

	02-02-2003 22:16									#11
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This "stack of Doom" will come when they discover Chivalry. Both UU come with the same tech. They will need horses and iron to build them, but I don't think this would be a significant problem.

The chineese Rider is 4/3/3 and costs 70
The arabian Ansar Warrior is 4/2/3 and costs 60
The normal Knight is 4/3/2 and costs 70

So, their real adavantage from the normal unit is their speed. This makes difficult for us to catch them, and they will no doubt use this mobility to end their turns on mountains and tiles with defensive bonus as often as they can. Our chances to win a round against them with a unit with attack of 4 are:

Against Ansar Warrior:
Normal terrain: 4/(4+2)=4/6 = 66%
Forest and jungle (+25%): 4/(4+2.5) = 4/6.5 = 62%
Hills (+50%): 4/(4+3) = 4/7 = 57%
Mountains (+100%): 4/(4+4) = 4/8 = 50%

Against Rider:
Normal terrain: 4/(4+3)=4/7 = 57%
Forest and jungle (+25%): 4/(4+3.75) = 4/7.75 = 51%
Hills (+50%): 4/(4+4.5) = 4/8.5 = 47%
Mountains (+100%): 4/(4+6) = 4/10 = 40%

They will likely reach our cities even if we don't want them to do that. That's why the improved city walls would be useful. If they choose to destroy our roads and improvements then they will expose themselves on normal terrain and be more vulnerable.

Also, by the natura of our playstyle they will likely attack before us, and catch us by surprise. That's why I consider defense more important, and the GW would help.

Of course, said that, I also want to remember that the GL is more urgent than the GW at these moments. Specially because we have already choosen the Literature path, and if we don't build the GL this will be more or less like a wasted researching time.

But, being all this chat about wonders, I would like to know the opinion of the Chief Architext Astrologix.

	02-02-2003 23:31									#12
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Oliverfa is correct.

We can quickly rebuild mines, roads, and irrigation.

Razed cities with all of their population and improvements are harder to replace.

Against 3-movement UU's, higher fortifications are the better option.

	03-02-2003 01:56									#13
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What about forts? Put a couple of units, it'll be like a substitute great wall, the enemy will have trouble getting in and they will NOT get out alive. btw, if we dont cut down jungle in the borderlands (between the forts) their 3-move will be less useful as they'll be bogged down and in range for our swordsmen in garrison.These are considerable defensive works i'm talking about not a mickey mouse band camp fort, here and there.

Theoretically it would be something like 2 squares between each fort, containing at least 1def+1off unit, jungle on and between all forts and mobile off. troops in the cities waiting.

of course there is a flaw in this great enterprise, it is called boats... but assuming that noone in their right mind will launch a large scale invasion by galley(caravel also somewhat inefficient), it might work.

Assuming my idea is dismissed as mad ramblings, I vote for option 2. counteroffensive mucho importante.
but they could be placed in forts...

	03-02-2003 02:37									#14
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quote: Originally posted by LzPrst What about forts? Put a couple of units, it'll be like a substitute great wall, the enemy will have trouble getting in and they will NOT get out alive. btw, if we dont cut down jungle in the borderlands (between the forts) their 3-move will be less useful as they'll be bogged down and in range for our swordsmen in garrison.These are considerable defensive works i'm talking about not a mickey mouse band camp fort, here and there.

I invite Senor LzPrst (or anyone else) to present an image of how this would be set up. Please download our world map, draw in where you'd put up forts and roads, and post it in the "Army of Spain" thread.

--Togas

	03-02-2003 02:45									#15
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I'd go for option 1 in border cities, option 2 for the rest. Oliverfa is right, with their 3 movement points, GoW & ND's units will always reach our cities before we can stop them. So we need a defense solid as a rock to block the first wave, and a large offensive army to counter attack.

	03-02-2003 02:57									#16
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quote: Originally posted by oliverfa .... Of course, said that, I also want to remember that the GL is more urgent than the GW at these moments. Specially because we have already choosen the Literature path, and if we don't build the GL this will be more or less like a wasted researching time. But, being all this chat about wonders, I would like to know the opinion of the Chief Architext Astrologix.

Currently we are researching Literature (that will allow us to build libraries & the GL) and we count to have Mathematics from a trade soon.

As soon as we have Literature, we can start building the GL (or a Palace as a shieldbank). As said by Arnelos , the GL could be useless because currently we are trading well with the other civs in our continent (but what if we enter in wars against our neighbours ?). But it's a fact that having the GL could allow us to save our money for upgrading our military units or for rushing buildings under monarchy.

For a while, we couldn't build the Great Wall because no one is researching Construction.

I remember several GW costs :

Great Wall : 200 shields
Great Library : 400 shields
Lighthouse : 300 shields

If we start building a GW (or a Palace instead), in say, 40-50 turns from now (it seems that it's impossible faster, because any of our cities (Madrid excepted) could do this before a while) we'll probably able to CHOOSE what Wonder exactly to build, assuming that building the Great Wall (Construction) will be available in 40-50 turns too.

But it's clear that if we choose the Great Wall, we'll have to decide this before we reach the amount of 200 shilds accumulated in one of our cities.

Let's decide later...

	03-02-2003 03:03									#17
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ok. I've now completely revised the primary line of garrisoned fortress defenses.
Complete with roads/and possible expansions for new forts.
My personal courier has just recently left with this extremely important document and hopefully he will deliver it to lord Togas shortly.

Last edited by LzPrst on 03-02-2003 at 19:38

	03-02-2003 20:04									#18
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From size 7, walls and Great Wall have no effect. That means that they are build for the Ancient Age only, when 3 moves UU are not yet available, and when any threat can be met with swordmen and horses (in our present game, they would be useful between around 950 BC through around 400 BC, that is about 25 turns). It is why I prefer to build upgradable units with the amount of shields devoted to walls and GW.
The Middle Age is a different story; assuming that we have in 400 BC 10 cities and 40 units (10 workers, 15 in garrison, and 15 knights), we would be able to deter a Stack od Doom of a respectable size (I mean more than 15). When the war is declared, we cannot be really surprised. If we think that a surprise attack without declaration of war is possible, an extra five units must be build to serve as lookouts.

	03-02-2003 20:16									#19
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Good point DAVOUT

	03-02-2003 20:21									#20
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It seems my courier has fallen to wild beasts on the way, luckily he was able to desroy the document by eating it just before the bull sent him flying. He'll make a full recovery my herbalist tells me, in 35-40 years.
I have no other choice but to bring the fortifications map myself.




As shown above positions A,B and C are the plans for the initial western defensive line.

The red lines are the interconnecting roads.

Spots x and y are of strategic importance once city #6 (and eventually #8) are built.

If there is a need for garrisoned troops to protect Madrid sections f and d (possibly d? ) are possible.

Finally, when cities #14 and the much-debated city of Sierra shinies are built, the line should be extended north into the Sierras. I have not plotted such a line in as it is purely hypothetical.

Let me just add that we need to establish cities along what will become our defensive perimeter as soon as possible. This cannot be stressed enough. A line of defense depends on there being a line of forts on the outskirts of our cities.
As I see it, having an initial line of defense, lets call it "the jungle-theater of war" for instance, will make a war against us much harder as any army would have to fight its way through our forts just to get to our improvements. If they try to run past, theyll be skirmished to near death, and they have no chance of regrouping once inside our territory.
The only way to defeat us is by sheer totally overwhelming force.

Last edited by LzPrst on 03-02-2003 at 20:33

	03-02-2003 20:31									#21
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It seems that B will be overlaped by the next cultural expansion of ND Capital.

	03-02-2003 20:49									#22
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what? thats not possible. damn jungle I cant see their friggin borders... let me check.

AAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!!!!!!!! now i'll have to revise everything! can't we just raze the bloody thing?!

	03-02-2003 21:35									#23
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This is an excellent first proposal. Please continue to work on this project. In the first phase, individual warrios will be placed north of the cities to act as sentries. Later, fortressess may be employed. Road networks will definately be used so that we can meet our enemies outside our cities to counter their maneuverability.

--Togas

	03-02-2003 21:40									#24
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Hopefully, we will keep forward observers around long into the days when the "stack of doom" could make its way down towards our northern borders; however, even with forward observers, a military road network (assuming we ever get one ), and a fast-response force, I think city walls are a good idea for our northern border cities if only for their deterrence value. Unfortunately the terrain won't give them the line of sight needed to actually see our deterrent until they have already crossed our borders (assuming the border have expanded, IIRC).

Eventually, it would be nice to chop out a "killing zone" (as Señor DAVOUT termed it) between those cities and any threat. The jungles will just be helping them against our counterattack.

	03-02-2003 21:54									#25
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Indeed, the lower part of the jungle is of no use to us...
- Chop it down after we have rexed enough and grown, so that we can spit out many workers for that particulary heavy job.


The upper part is in our interest, (slows enemy movement before our borders) and will rather be chopped upon by the NeuDem workers. By then, we should have made them our allies, if they did not fall into the GoWs nasty plots.

I know if we play our cards right, we can be largest civ on this continent... and hopefully the strongest too.

	03-02-2003 22:05									#26
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There!
Friggin neighbours

Locations for more forts in the east must also be discussed. (location f)



All the jungle indicated within our borders should be considered furniture on an extended life lease.
That way enemy soldiers will be slowed down when trying to pass our forts and can easily be counterattacked if they pass into our lands. The forts and the areas in between them outside of our borders should stay wild. Dont invade russia in winter, and dont invade spain in summer

Last edited by LzPrst on 03-02-2003 at 22:20

	03-02-2003 22:26									#27
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Señor Meneñdez, you might want to check, but I believe there is discussion in the Map Room about moving the city near the silks NW one tile and putting it directly on the silk resource. Just an FYI; the plan looks great

	03-02-2003 22:30									#28
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which one!? the west (#3) or the east (#6)

	03-02-2003 22:31									#29
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the West one, IIRC

	03-02-2003 22:32									#30
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i think lord Togas has decreed that it shall be as shown in my map.