02-02-2003 01:50									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten America is trying to get them to crack down on Al Qaeda, you jackass. Removing sanctions was an important part of getting the Pakistani's on our side.

Considering their GIFT to North Korea, it doesnt seem to quite be working. Pakistan continues to act against our interests today despite their cozying up to us, and it poses a MAJOR threat to American secuirty.

quote: North Korea is the unwinnable piss-fest. America actually has the opportunity to change things for the better in Iraq, something we can't do in North Korea.

So are you saying this administration has let North Korea aquire nuclear weapons while it persued Iraq?

	02-02-2003 01:50									#32
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Seriously Drake, stop calling him names... it only hurts your position.

	02-02-2003 01:50									#33
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quote: But they didnt have them a YEAR AGO.....Did we accidently forget about North Korea?

They did have nukes a year ago, actually. But the US and the rest of the world did forget about them, in a way. Nuclear proliferation has never gotten the amount of attention it deserves and now we're all dealing with that shortsightedness.

	02-02-2003 01:50									#34
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Well, that's not a recession. Clean up your language.

	02-02-2003 01:51									#35
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Didn't the economy used to be growing at 5-6 percent? I remember reading that somewhere in the economist....

	02-02-2003 01:51									#36
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Well, that's not a recession. Clean up your language.

	02-02-2003 01:51									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten They did have nukes a year ago, actually.

Actually, our intelligence services informed us that by the end of January of 2003, they would have nukes but they did not have them yet and they urged immediate action to be taken.

IIRC, that is.

	02-02-2003 01:52									#38
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quote: Seriously Drake, stop calling him names... it only hurts your position.

You're an idiot too, Sava. If you're going to ***** about recessions, it might actually help to know what a recession is...

	02-02-2003 01:52									#39
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Sava, a recession is a period of two quarters or more of negative growth. Technically, we haven't had a recession at all, since there was only one negative quarter, but we have a lot of stagnant growth punctuated by some rapid growth (3rd quarter 2002 was 4% growth while the 4th quarter was .7%).

	02-02-2003 01:54									#40
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quote: So are you saying this administration has let North Korea aquire nuclear weapons while it persued Iraq?

No. Most experts say that North Korea has had one or two nukes for years now.

	02-02-2003 01:55									#41
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i blame CLINTON for 9.11.01, not BUSH.

	02-02-2003 01:57									#42
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX i blame CLINTON for 9.11.01, not BUSH.

Of course you do, Uber

Drake: Honestly, I have no idea. I remember hearing from all the major networks that they DIDNT have them until then. However, I'm a bit too busy to search for evidence.

	02-02-2003 01:57									#43
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I blame all the presidents from Jimmy Carter forward. They all had their hands in creating the monster and the last two didn't put the dots together.

	02-02-2003 01:59									#44
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I agree with che. Although I don't think the US "created" the monster, we ignored it for far too long.

	02-02-2003 01:59									#45
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I happen to think that Bush is the right man to be president at this time. He has the character and the courage to succesfully lead this nation through these tragedies.

	02-02-2003 01:59									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Seriously Drake, stop calling him names... it only hurts your position. You're an idiot too, Sava. If you're going to ***** about recessions, it might actually help to know what a recession is...

Thanks Fez

	02-02-2003 02:00									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I agree with che. Although I don't think the US "created" the monster, we ignored it for far too long.

I once heard that courage without wisdom is poison. Can't remember where though.

And I also agree with Che. The US did create this monster and it was ignored by too many presidents.

	02-02-2003 02:00									#48
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I feel REALLY strongly about things so I'm going to write RANDOM words in BLOCK capitals.
Doing this makes my ARGUMENT stronger.

	02-02-2003 02:01									#49
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And about the recession thing... I'm not an economist, I don't pay attention to markets and numbers and such. I hear on the news every day, "Recession, recession, recession" so direct your insults to the American media. I already know I'm ignorant on the subject. Perhaps you could respect the rules of Apolyton and not call people idiots because they happen to be wrong or happen to disagree with you

	02-02-2003 02:02									#50
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet stronger.

no?

	02-02-2003 02:07									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I agree with che. Although I don't think the US "created" the monster, we ignored it for far too long.

Extremist political Islam was fostered by the US, Israel, and a few other countries as a counterweight to radical Arab/Iranian/etc. nationalism which was seen as Communist led (or at least not sufficiently hostile to the Communists). Israel funded Hamas for many years, for example. We paid the Ayatollah for years before he came to power to try and keep him quiet (to help our ally the Shah) but also to help direct the movement against the Shah away from the left (the Iranian revolution really could have gone either way, there were workers' councils in the oil fields for example).

Mujahedeen nutjobs were brought to the US illegally (the CIA helped get them past INS and State), trained, and sent on to fight in Afganistan. Some of these very scary people later formed the core of al-Qaeda. In a very serious sense, al-Qaeda is a Frankenstein's monster.

	02-02-2003 02:09									#52
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quote: Its called COVERT OPERATIONS.

Which is the reason why you haven't heard anything about attacking Pakistan.

In any case, there is much better chance of getting Musharaf on our side, than there is getting Saddam.

	02-02-2003 02:16									#53
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quote: Israel funded Hamas for many years, for example.

arabs are celebrating the shuttle disaster.

	02-02-2003 02:16									#54
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Oh, dear, I've inadvertently set off a firestorm ...

	02-02-2003 02:18									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel arabs are celebrating the shuttle disaster.

What does one fact have to do with the other?

	02-02-2003 02:18									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper Oh, dear, I've inadvertently set off a firestorm ...

It's healthy, cathartic. Don't worry about it.

	02-02-2003 02:31									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel arabs are celebrating the shuttle disaster.

Don't even pretend this is unsubstantiated. In the 1970s (and maybe the 1980s), Hamas recieved funds from the Israeli state. Hamas set up schools, medical centers, and food pantries with this money. Israel saw this as a way of undermining civilian support for the PLO. It backfired. In retrospect, I'm sure they wish they hadn't done it, but at the time they had no idea that Hamas would become a terrorist group.

	02-02-2003 03:17									#58
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quote: ... I'm not an economist, I don't pay attention to markets and numbers and such.

And yet you expect people to take your rants seriously?

	02-02-2003 03:21									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper Oh, dear, I've inadvertently set off a firestorm ...

You just can't kill the beast

	02-02-2003 03:38									#60
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Hmm...

I blame American foreign policy in last 50 years.

Too much imperialistic (if he gives us oil he "nice dictator, if he does not, he's butcher, if they fight Soviets they are good fundamentalists, if they not they are terrorists)

Too much dishonest (exept when dealing with more powerful european nations in NATO). Allies becomes enemies too often.

Too much lies to make their own nation approve things said ealier ("It's all for democracy and freedom of people!")

Too much out of UN (if it doesn't suit us ignore it).

And too muich powerful (power corrupts).