02-02-2003 07:18									#1
	Should I make Guerrillas 8/8/1? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Hola,

I was wondering if it would not be too unstable to give Guerrillas 8/8/1, hidden nationality and treat all terrain as roads. Perhaps those attack/defense values are too much? I think 6 is pretty measly, considering the Guerrilla should be usefull throught the rest of the game but giving them hidden nationality (thats the fun part!) will make them too powerful...

I also make Marines 12/8/1 and Paratroopers 8/10/1 both with a airdrop range of 8 (marines through helicopters of course) on a huge map.

	02-02-2003 07:21									#2
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The li'l buggers can already be built without any strategic resources. How much more advantage do they need?

	02-02-2003 07:24									#3
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Well, considering Riflemen are 4/6 and they can be built without resources, making guerrillas 6/6 wouln't by itself be much of a difference.

	02-02-2003 07:39									#4
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Guerillas whole purpose is an alternative for resource stricken civs and ways to solve outdated units to still be of importance in industrial era. People who think guerillas should be any more than that is totally unblanacing this fact that firaxis had in mind.

	02-02-2003 08:38									#5
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Guerillas should be later on the tech tree. I made Infantry upgrade to Balou's Modern Infantry (available at Civfanatics) and I made Guerillas Modern Infantry replacements for resource-weak civs. The animation does have an automatic, after all. The infantry graphic doesn't, so hence the guerilla should be farther along the tech tree.

	02-02-2003 10:47									#6
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I agree with Calc, I just finished a game with Guerillas as 8.8.1 + all terrain as roads, and the little buggers were just too powerful for thie intended role, I built them instead of Cavalry. I think that a 6.8.1 is an appropriate rating. In my defense I had modded the guerilla before realizing that the guerilla; in addition to needing no resources, also does not require support either, making it a viable alternative to other foot units

	02-02-2003 11:57									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II Guerillas whole purpose is an alternative for resource stricken civs and ways to solve outdated units to still be of importance in industrial era. People who think guerillas should be any more than that is totally unblanacing this fact that firaxis had in mind.

I agree, too. They serve a perfectly good purpose as-is (ever been caught without the resources to build infantry?). The issue may be in the name - Light Infantry might be more appropriate. If they actually were to be used as guerillas, 4-3-2 would probably be more accurate, with hidden nationality. Of course since the AI's are drawn to hidden nationality units like magnets, they'd end up being about as useful as "land privateers".

	02-02-2003 16:30									#8
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I keep them at 6.6.1 because they are not really there to take on the better military units (I make both paratroops and marines 8.8.1) The only change that is useful is to give guerillas all terrain as roads. The AI then uses them to raid your border and newly captured territory so you are forced to guard workers and pick off these infiltrators so it gives the AI a chance to divert some of your attacking forces.

I do find the animation hilarious when a guerilla tries to bayonet a MA

	02-02-2003 21:06									#9
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV I keep them at 6.6.1 because they are not really there to take on the better military units (I make both paratroops and marines 8.8.1) The only change that is useful is to give guerillas all terrain as roads. The AI then uses them to raid your border and newly captured territory so you are forced to guard workers and pick off these infiltrators so it gives the AI a chance to divert some of your attacking forces. I do find the animation hilarious when a guerilla tries to bayonet a MA

Giving it ATAR allows the Guerilla better movement than cavalry which makes it two powerful, i suggest move=2, ignore rough terrain if you want to make them more mobile than regular foot units.

	03-02-2003 00:11									#10
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I modded my guerillas 6.6.2 ignore terrain restrictions, invisible, colorless.

Three AI countries bought the farm at the hands of their neighbors in undeclared wars consisting entirely of guerilla actions. (which, admittedly, was really cool, and sorta the intended effect: constant low-level undeclared war)

Its a fun game, but I think next time I either won't make them invisible, reinstate terrain restrictions, or bump them somewhere else on the tech tree further down.

	03-02-2003 02:08									#11
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possible solution is to get a new infantry unit in the modern age.

There's an excellent Modern Infantry found in the Civfanatics download section, check it out.

	03-02-2003 02:19									#12
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That's part of the plan, as well as several other colorless 'partisan' units. The problem in this last game was that most of the neighboring countries lacked enough rubber to defend themselves properly. Regular Infantry was adequate, and I have defended one wall-less city against hundreds of attacking guerilla units with four infantry and two artillery.

	03-02-2003 11:08									#13
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Regardless of what was Firaxis's intended role (frankly I cannot consider Firaxis' vanilla stats as an unbreakable law - just look at how they gave us the Cruise Missle) Guerrillas should have certain advantages:

They are usually knowledgable about terrain, so they should have a major movement advantage, more than cavalry since cavalry only moves fast in flat terrain, not in mountains or jungle or forest. That is why I give them all terrain as roads.

Cavalry is available since the middle ages, so franky I see no reason why Guerrillas should be any weaker since they are a newer unit. Unlike cavalry, guerrillas have pased the test of time and are widely used today. That's why I proposed 8/8 and at the same time gave Marines 12/8 and Paras 8/10.

Guerrillas are sometimes backed and funded by another power, for this reason I proposed the hidden nationality so as to exert your power this way. However, it seems that this makes the AI wage unrelentless war with guerrillas quite unrealisticaly.

If Firaxis intended the Guerrilla to replace the Rifleman for resource-starved civs, then why only give them 6/6? There is no defensive advantage to upgrading and thus renders the units useless besides the fact they need no support.

Mad Bomber propoposed 6/8/1. Sounds reasonable.

	03-02-2003 11:22									#14
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Trust me, bump them further down the tech tree or they will rampage all over the map. The invisibility makes a big difference. Any nation that hasn't got any rubber or hasn't upgraded their units will be swiftly overrun by other AI; It seems that the colorless units cause AIs at peace to ignore the threat.

	03-02-2003 11:27									#15
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Hadn't noticed Jaguar Warrior mentioned the Modern Infantry before...

cool unit ain't it?

I usually make it upgradable from the regular Infantry as the default draft unit of the modern age. After all, I didn't know IFV's came with each draftee in real life...

	03-02-2003 16:31									#16
	Re: Should I make Guerrillas 8/8/1? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by raguil_79 Hola, I was wondering if it would not be too unstable to give Guerrillas 8/8/1, hidden nationality and treat all terrain as roads. Perhaps those attack/defense values are too much? I think 6 is pretty measly, considering the Guerrilla should be usefull throught the rest of the game but giving them hidden nationality (thats the fun part!) will make them too powerful... I also make Marines 12/8/1 and Paratroopers 8/10/1 both with a airdrop range of 8 (marines through helicopters of course) on a huge map.

hi ,

, its very high , 4/4/1 would be better , you have to take in account the all the other units in the game and the price , note also that the price is different depending on the level , ....

have a nice day

	03-02-2003 20:53									#17
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For a more even unit, give guerilla 80:5.2.2 no terrain penalty for: hill/mt/jungle

Why?

If cost == 90 ++, AI builds too many instead of infantry.

Off == 5. If 6, sometimes have same problems of AI building armies of guerillas. 6 would make sense, but AI overvalues and over creates guerillas at the expense of infantry. AI's with armies of guerillas are way too weak.

Def == 2. Sounds super weak, but like the paratrooper and marines, the defense values of these modern units seem to be tweaked in actual combat situations. Besides guerillas are great for offense, not defense. Their defense is slipping away.

Move==2. All terrain as roads makes them light calvary. No way a foot unit can move as fast or as far as a unit on horse. Now if you changed the graphic and made these modern cavs on harleys, that would indeed make sense. To support slipping away, removed terrain restrictions of hills/mts/etc.

How does it play? AI with rubber will build about 1 guerrilla to 5 infantry. This seems to be about the right build percentage.

Oh, another option now relooking at costs, would be to keep cost of guerilla at 90, but bump infantry to 100 so AI builds more infantry than guerilla.

Also, the AI does NOT use the 2 moves to strike in move 1 and escape in move 2. I have yet to see any escape moves. For a human player this is a big advantage. Hit, run and the AI has to search for you.

Oh, also changed so guerrilla is invisible. Only visible to: other guerillas, infantry, mechs. This does help keep streams of MA running thru land without foot units.

Not fully satisfied with these guerilla values, they are quite good but don't yet have a feeling they are ideal. Open to alternative suggestions. Maybe rifleman is too costly at 80, etc.

== PF

	03-02-2003 21:17									#18
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quote: Also, the AI does NOT use the 2 moves to strike in move 1 and escape in move 2. I have yet to see any escape moves. For a human player this is a big advantage. Hit, run and the AI has to search for you.

Oh, it most certainly does in my games. While I agree with you comments about the attack and defend values so that the AI builds less, it definately was using the retreat againt a city of mine, sending a stack of at least fifteen at a time to attack and then promptly retreat back to an AI city.

	03-02-2003 21:57									#19
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by planetfall For a more even unit, give guerilla 80:5.2.2 no terrain penalty for: hill/mt/jungle Why? If cost == 90 ++, AI builds too many instead of infantry. Off == 5. If 6, sometimes have same problems of AI building armies of guerillas. 6 would make sense, but AI overvalues and over creates guerillas at the expense of infantry. AI's with armies of guerillas are way too weak. Def == 2. Sounds super weak, but like the paratrooper and marines, the defense values of these modern units seem to be tweaked in actual combat situations. Besides guerillas are great for offense, not defense. Their defense is slipping away. Move==2. All terrain as roads makes them light calvary. No way a foot unit can move as fast or as far as a unit on horse. Now if you changed the graphic and made these modern cavs on harleys, that would indeed make sense. To support slipping away, removed terrain restrictions of hills/mts/etc. How does it play? AI with rubber will build about 1 guerrilla to 5 infantry. This seems to be about the right build percentage. Oh, another option now relooking at costs, would be to keep cost of guerilla at 90, but bump infantry to 100 so AI builds more infantry than guerilla. Also, the AI does NOT use the 2 moves to strike in move 1 and escape in move 2. I have yet to see any escape moves. For a human player this is a big advantage. Hit, run and the AI has to search for you. Oh, also changed so guerrilla is invisible. Only visible to: other guerillas, infantry, mechs. This does help keep streams of MA running thru land without foot units. Not fully satisfied with these guerilla values, they are quite good but don't yet have a feeling they are ideal. Open to alternative suggestions. Maybe rifleman is too costly at 80, etc. == PF

My 6.8.2 mod I have recently used (cost=80, ignore rough) with good results. The units are weaker at attack and defense than regular infantry, they are cheaper, require no support, and will attack, retreat if the option presents itself. As for the building by AI's this seems to be in PF's range of 5:1 ratio of infantry to Guerilla (actual ratio is appox 100:15 but you do the math)

I like the Guerilla as I have it in my mod, I should note that they are not colorless this would be an exploit IMO and lead to ceaseless wars. One minor tweak that I think I will add is to give them the radar ability so that they know more of their surroundings.

Note: The invisible trait does not mean that they cannot be attacked. I gave the invisible ability to the guerilla, and my tanks started attacking them, but it was like they were attacking empty air, decidedly unpleasant was that experience.

	03-02-2003 22:01									#20
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV I do find the animation hilarious when a guerilla tries to bayonet a MA

Yes, but I've seen a stack of about 3 of them stab an MA to death. But the victor doesn't usuallly last long the next turn.

	03-02-2003 23:29									#21
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quote: I should note that they are not colorless this would be an exploit IMO and lead to ceaseless wars.

It does, and in my case was the intended result, but is something really an exploit if the AI uses the units as intended? Can the AI use exploits, by definition?

	04-02-2003 04:07									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Sisawat It does, and in my case was the intended result, but is something really an exploit if the AI uses the units as intended? Can the AI use exploits, by definition?

Dunno, just know the AI keeps nabbing my workers and I can never be too certain who it is w/o going to the F3 screen and checking. OTOH, everytime I make an attack w/guerillas the target civ seems to know I had something to do with it since they get really ticked off at me.

	04-02-2003 04:33									#23
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quote: Dunno, just know the AI keeps nabbing my workers and I can never be too certain who it is w/o going to the F3 screen and checking.

Yeah, that happens. I just go steal em back, and a few of theirs for good measure. I have armies of two Infantry and one Guerilla whose whole purpose is to hunt insurgents. I'm loving this. BTW: the rest of my base rules are the Apolyton-U mod.

quote: OTOH, everytime I make an attack w/guerillas the target civ seems to know I had something to do with it since they get really ticked off at me.

Now that's different. The AI in my games doesn't seem to know any better than I do whose Guerillas are attacking who.

Next game should be interesting, I'm adding colorless terrorists, Technicals, and Katyusha rocket launchers. And giving them to the barbarians too if it will work.

	04-02-2003 17:19									#24
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hi ,

one option to make guerrillas intresting is to hide the identity , but , be warned , place one on a hill somewhere and the AI goes after it , its like with privateers , the AI can see the map and knows where units with hidden identity are , ........

but it works and rocks

small revolts caused by transports filled with guerillas

have a nice day