02-02-2003 08:39									#1
	Is "Draft Border Treaty 3" acceptable? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I just sent a new draft border proposal to the GS mailbox and the usual suspects. It's based on the original draft border treaty that Jon and I hashed out in chat, but with Dissidentville in its actual settled location and our northernmost city moved 9 to the coast so it can build a harbor and use some coast tiles to achieve a viable size. Do we want to push this as a final negotiated border with Vox?

Edit: I gave the poll a 1-day time limit since we've already hashed out the issue a fair amount and we need to get moving before Vox settles another "let's stretch the borders" city.

Edit: The subject heading on the e-mail is "New Border Treaty Draft." The "Draft Border Treaty 3" title comes from the name on the .jpg itself.

Edit: General Theseus wants our city that will use the second iron moved up against the mountain. Let's regard that as the new official map we're voting on.

Nathan

Last edited by nbarclay on 02-02-2003 at 11:06

	02-02-2003 09:04									#2
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Hmm...

I'm more or less fine with the plan, but I'll throw out some considerations:

* NW-most town: I hate putting towns next to mountains / hills, but I could make the argument here... place it 9, and guarantee control of the iron.

* NE-most town: In general, this area is packed at 2-tile spacing. The ability to build a harbor here is good, but similarly, I could make an arument for moving it 1, thus guaranteeing control of the adjacent mountain.

BTW, if I were recommending sites to Vox, I would move the inland town 4, thus maintaining a jungle shield and easing their ability to road / connect.

	02-02-2003 09:12									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Fine with me, although it would be good to make sure we get the iron as backup. Iron is the most valuable resource in this game, I guess, so let's not risk ending up without iron.

	02-02-2003 09:21									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

SR, are you resonding to my post?

That was sort of my point, that we control a second iron.

	02-02-2003 09:29									#5
	Put an end to popups!

The big question is whether we want to take a chance of Vox's ending up with the iron through culture or whether we wnat to take a chance on their ending up with it through military action. How about if we propose the border to Vox on terms where we're allowed to build our city in either location depending on our preference when the time comes?

Nathan

	02-02-2003 10:37									#6
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I prefer surety. Please try to negotiate the border treaty such that we are directly adjacent to the iron.

	02-02-2003 11:07									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

Okay, let's make that the official proposal we're voting on then: the city claiming our second iron moved 9 from its proposed location, up against the mountain. I added an edit to the initial message of the thread to reflect this change.

	02-02-2003 11:54									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay The big question is whether we want to take a chance of Vox's ending up with the iron through culture or whether we wnat to take a chance on their ending up with it through military action. How about if we propose the border to Vox on terms where we're allowed to build our city in either location depending on our preference when the time comes? Nathan

I'm not worried about Vox military action. they are settling their early cites in impossible situations production wise.

Even if they could figure out how to put up a fight, they will not have the forces to do so.

	02-02-2003 12:51									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

nye, I've probably been insulting Vox as much as anyone (and thye deserve it).

But let us also assume the worst...

Down the road, I worry horribly about mountains next to our towns / cities. We'll want Spearmen on key defensive positions, preferably roaded and in forts.

	02-02-2003 15:22									#10
	Support Apolyton

I voted yes, the deal is acceptable if our NWmost town is moved 9, as suggested.

	02-02-2003 16:38									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus SR, are you resonding to my post?

No, I was just seconding you.

	03-02-2003 00:46									#12
	Support Apolyton

I'm glad to see this (final, hopefuly) draft is getting the support it needs. I vote yes for this one- let's get this over with. Hopefuly Vox will have the sense to accept this, and save what is left of their chances to become a developed civ, and a worthy partner.

	03-02-2003 04:41									#13
	Suffering from ads?

I voted no. I am against set borders. There is too much order being brought out from the chaos. A chaotic game will benefit us more then them because we have more skill on our side.

	03-02-2003 05:06									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I don't like to have the iron city moved inwards, so we lose a coast to work... I liked the original, 3rd border treaty better.

So, I voted yes (if I'm not too late, this thread is getting 1 day old), for the original. Or the other, anything that resolves this matter quickly, but well thought.

DeepO

	03-02-2003 14:37									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Just a small observation, but if they settle the one tile isthmus, we won't be able to pass it.

(if we would ever try to invade Lux (together with Vox), this will make things alot more complicated)

	03-02-2003 15:01									#16
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by alva Just a small observation, but if they settle the one tile isthmus, we won't be able to pass it. (if we would ever try to invade Lux (together with Vox), this will make things alot more complicated)

A little more complicated, but not terrible. Basically, we'd need a galley or two as a "stepping stone" around the isthmus to get our forces into North Estonia on their way to the invasion. Positioned correctly, the galley(s) wouldn't even have to move, and two units could cross per galley per turn (one turn into the galley, and one out as the next units move in).

And if we do fight Vox someday, I'd just as soon not have their city in that area be on a hill, which is the logical alternative.