02-02-2003 20:14									#31
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov It baffles me why a Christian would assert God created such a vast universe and only made Earth have intelligent life. Why would God be so wasteful? What would be the point? This is just senseless terra-centrism. It even makes a reference in the Bible to God's "other flocks," which can reasonably be interpreted as beings from other worlds.

It would seem kinda silly for God to create a universe billions of light years across only to create intelligent life on one miniscule part of it. If human life is the ultimate beautiful expression of God's love and power - why doesn't every planet have humans?

	02-02-2003 20:19									#32
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Just saw your edit/expansion of your earlier post! Let me know if you get a deal on them! Periodically we can shoot them "additional sitings" work, to keep the gravy train rolling!

And for the record (and on topic), I agree.....the Universe is too big to be just wasted space. Even the fundy Christian perspective would have a hard time answering Stoo's question.....if we're the chosen, then why AREN'T there humans on multiple planets? Would seem a great way to run the experiment, no?

Even better though (from a cosmic perspective) would be to experiment with multitudes of different life forms, springing up on a variety of planets and environments.

Or, you could simply play the numbers, and as has been mentioned, even if the odds were a hundred million to one, that's still a whooooole lotta life.

-=Vel=-

	02-02-2003 21:19									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov It baffles me why a Christian would assert God created such a vast universe and only made Earth have intelligent life. Why would God be so wasteful? What would be the point? This is just senseless terra-centrism. It even makes a reference in the Bible to God's "other flocks," which can reasonably be interpreted as beings from other worlds.

a lot of what Christians say have no relevance to the real world, why would you expect different here?

	02-02-2003 22:58									#34
	Put an end to popups!

actually I think if there is intelligent life I bet it only numbers in the hundreds of different species.

Do a little research into how perfect things have to be for intelligent life to develop on earth.

Now I do believe there are millions of different species out there. But many are probably just microorganisms. Although it is possible they are intelligent microorganisms . But that seems unlikely. Too many conditions have to be right to support large humanoid organisms.

	02-02-2003 23:01									#35
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

going reeeal scifi here, but.

What about possibility of non-carbon based lifeforms?

	02-02-2003 23:08									#36
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Dissident actually I think if there is intelligent life I bet it only numbers in the hundreds of different species.

I agree with you here. Life maybe be plentiful in the universe, but intelligent life is bound to be extremely rare.

	02-02-2003 23:11									#37
	Support Apolyton

like Nitrogen based life forms?

	02-02-2003 23:15									#38
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Banana-based life-forms?

	02-02-2003 23:18									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I think Uranium based life forms would be cool.

We could enslave them throw them into nuclear reactors

	03-02-2003 00:17									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

My guess is that intelligent aliens do exist, but the odds against them on any given planet are so huge that there's maybe one or two races per galaxy, tops. No way we'll ever run into them.

	03-02-2003 00:26									#41
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Carbon's got some lovely properties that you're hard pressed to find elsewhere on the periodic table. It's stable, small, does just fabulous things with its bonds and is as flexible as a Thai gymnast turned prostitute.

To the left of carbon is boron which is a weird element and doesn't form bonds at the right angles. To the right is nitrogen which, while vital to organic chem, is more of a supporting player than a central character. Just below carbon is silicon which tends to form hard, crystalline materials. Compare CO₂, a gas to SiO₂, ie, sand.

	03-02-2003 00:35									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Want to see an alien?



come to Houston

INS office is full of em

	03-02-2003 01:05									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: It baffles me why a Christian would assert God created such a vast universe and only made Earth have intelligent life. Why would God be so wasteful? What would be the point?

Boris, some Christians think that there are other lifeforms, some don't.

I used to weigh on the pro-alien side until I looked at the evolutionary arguments, the possibility of life forming from scratch, given the amount of time we estimate for the universe.

The odds are not good, and we still don't know what it takes to make life from scratch, so it seems reasonable to presume that there will be additional conditions for life to form.

Wasteful?
Maybe God likes the universe neat and tidy.

	03-02-2003 01:11									#44
	Get a bigger avatar today!

of course we exist

	03-02-2003 01:13									#45
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

COME ON PEOPLE, STOP SPAMMING IN MY THREAD.

	03-02-2003 01:13									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

If the universe is infinite, then there are an infinite amount of sentient life-forms spread throughout the cosmos. It's just a question of how far away they are from us.

Do I think aliens have come to earth? No...

	03-02-2003 01:28									#47
	Got spare money?

IMO, The odds are very good. I think there is life in at least a dosen other places in our Galaxy alone, and maybe highly evolved life in 2 or three places. However, I am being conservative, and it actually can be much more.

Lets see. there are a hundred billion stars in the solar system=10^11.
Let's say that half of them are too close to the center of the galaxy, in high concentrations of stars too bright for life to exist. that leaves us with 5*10^10.
Lets say that one in a hundred stars has planets: 5*10^9.
a Small planet relatively close to the sun: 5*10^6 ( one in a thousand, a very unforgiving fraction., considering the fact that our sun alone has 4 rocky planets close to the sun)

a small planet that has a relatively large moon: we have two examples of this in our solar system, Earth and pluto. This gives us an approximate 1 in 5. yet, what are the chances of having a large moon circling a small planet close to the solar system.
I think that one in 100 is a fair estimate. we have 5*10^4.

lots of water: say... one in 20: 2.5*10^3.
A suitable atmosphere: one in 10? it gives us 250.

Where am I wrong with my guessing math?

considering the fact that we have hundreds of billions of galaxies, I would say that the chance that we are alone are well, almost nonexistant.

	03-02-2003 01:48									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Azazel actually posted a simplified version of what is known as the Drake Equation. You take the number of stars in the galaxy and then multiple by the percentages that would have planets, suitable conditions, life, intelligent life, radio broadcasting life, and how long those broadcasting civlisations would survive for.

An interactive Drake Equation can be found here: http://www.activemind.com/Mysteriou...e_equation.html

You have to set the numbers extremely low to get just one civilisation in the galaxy.

Of course, we may be totally wrong about what shape an advanced alien society would take. Something of particular interest for me is the phenomenom known as the Singularity (the Spike, the Techno-Rapture, etc). If current trends can be sustained at their current rates of increase, then stuff like computing power, nanotechnology, life span, etc all accelerate upwards dramatically over the next 50 years to form a spike which prevents us from predicting what lies on the other side. Of course, this may all be number plotting with no basis in reality. However, if it holds out, it stands to reason that other races have had their own techno-raptures in the past. A society on the other side of the singularity would be so technologically advanced we would be unable to know it in any meaningful way. They could be so minaturised from nanotech, so energy hungry they drain their sun, and so efficient that they scramble their broadcasts across multiple frequencies that, to us, they would appear as nothing but white noise and low level background radiation.

We could be staring at a million year old society at never realise it until they bother to take the time and energy to broadcast to us in a way we can understand (ie, on one frequency that we listen to, like the hydrogen band).

	03-02-2003 01:55									#49
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Whenever the topic of aliens comes up I find it intresting.

What I find intresting is that so many people can open there eyes to the fact that there could be life out there but close there eyes to the life that IS here.


THINK!

	03-02-2003 01:57									#50
	Tired of ads?

Yes, but none have visited Earth. This is based on the "Drake Equation":


there are 200,000,000,000 stars in the Milky Way Galaxy

10% of stars (20,000,000,000) are of the right type. (yellow or orange main sequence stars)

10% of the yellow and orange stars (2,000,000,000) have planets.

10% of solar systems (200,000,000) have terrestrial planets. (most of the rest are messed up with gas giant planets incrediblly close to its star, or have highly eliptical orbits)

10% of terrestrial planets (20,000,000) are at the right distance from it's star.

10% of planets in the right orbit (2,000,0000) have liquid water.

10% of oceanic planets (200,000) have life.

10% of living planets (20,000) will have large, multicellular organisms.

10% of planets with higher life forms (2,000) have intellegent life.

So, there are about 2,000 sentient species in the Galaxy.

	03-02-2003 01:57									#51
	Got spare money?

This is very much correct, Starchild, but such a singularity ignores the fact that a great ecological collapse is predicted for around the same time. The decline of the world population that large, that only one tenth of the current population will survive.

You can see plenty of research that predicts that, unless we stop our reliance on fossil fuels.

	03-02-2003 01:58									#52
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: lots of water: say... one in 20: 2.5*10^3.

How do you get water in the first place? In such large amounts as we have here in Earth? I doubt one out of every 20 planets somewhat earthlike conditions will have the water. You probably need a more pessimistic function.

Stuff you left out:
Presence of a substantial magnetic field.
Axis tip for seasons.
A decent rotation period.

quote: a Small planet relatively close to the sun:

A planet of roughly Earth size. Mercury cannot hold onto an atmosphere, nor can Mars.

You also need to exclude close binary stars, which exist outside of the centre of the galaxy.

quote: there are a hundred billion stars in the solar system

That's some solar system.

	03-02-2003 02:09									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I meant galaxy.

obiwan, there is plenty of place in my fractions to place that category into.

	03-02-2003 02:16									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Azazel This is very much correct, Starchild, but such a singularity ignores the fact that a great ecological collapse is predicted for around the same time. The decline of the world population that large, that only one tenth of the current population will survive. You can see plenty of research that predicts that, unless we stop our reliance on fossil fuels.

Oh yeah, planetary-wide ecological collapse would be a major hiccup. The technologies responsible for that collapse are all Industrial Revolution hangers-on that can be phased out by the next generation tech leading up to the Singularity. I've been reading the Viridian Manifesto lately and it's right: As a civilisation, we're addicted to fossil fuels and need to wean ourselves off of them. We've got the science to do so, we just need to get the cultural shift, the artistic spirit to do so.

The current generation of Euroleaders isn't exactly inspiring for their attempts to shift to a hydrogen economy but it's a lot better than some first world leaders *cough* who are actually so deeply a part of the hydrocarbon addiction that they're stepping backwards.

	03-02-2003 03:57									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Azazel You can see plenty of research that predicts that, unless we stop our reliance on fossil fuels.

Bush *cough* Oil Industry *cough*

SEND IN THE HYBRIDS! (Cars that is)

	03-02-2003 04:10									#56
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Hybrids? bah. Fuel Cell research is doing very well, I heard.

But we need a new energy resource. If we only wisen up and make the necessary leap to tap into one of the available nuclear power resources, we'll be able to power up the plants that would create fuel for the cars.

Global warming is one thing. The other thing is that a country can basically have a metal industry without natural resources. It can simply mine for ore in the landfills and such. Tons upon tons of Fe, Al, Cu, and other atoms lie around. All we need to do is process them efficiently. I worked for a shipping company once, and here I read on one of the bills of lading, that the export cargo is Aluminum. Why isn't it utilized as well as the regular mining? It's not that all the metal dissapears when it's used. It's dumped. And I will not be surprised if processing it would be actually easier than processing ore.

	03-02-2003 06:01									#57
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Azazel Hybrids? bah. Fuel Cell research is doing very well, I heard. But we need a new energy resource. If we only wisen up and make the necessary leap to tap into one of the available nuclear power resources, we'll be able to power up the plants that would create fuel for the cars. Global warming is one thing. The other thing is that a country can basically have a metal industry without natural resources. It can simply mine for ore in the landfills and such. Tons upon tons of Fe, Al, Cu, and other atoms lie around. All we need to do is process them efficiently. I worked for a shipping company once, and here I read on one of the bills of lading, that the export cargo is Aluminum. Why isn't it utilized as well as the regular mining? It's not that all the metal dissapears when it's used. It's dumped. And I will not be surprised if processing it would be actually easier than processing ore.

If we tried that the garbage disposal lobby in Washington (or Jerusalem, or London, or Berlin or Paris...) would get in the way

	03-02-2003 06:37									#58
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet Exactly Boris. Even if the probablity of other sentient life living around any given Star is a Thousand-Billion to One then there should be some out there.

Calculations made some time ago regarding the possibility/probability of the number of worlds capable of supporting "Earth-like" life in this galaxy yielded a lower limit of 10 000 and an upper limit in the millions IIRC.
This included Stellar class, distance from the primary, planetary mass, magnetic field and presence of both atmosphere and water.
Much of this is, of course, guesswork, and the existence of native life at any level, let alone sentient intelligent life wasn't covered - still, with that many possibilities it seems astronomically improbable that there isn't any "Earth-like" sentient life out there, without even allowing for the possibiliies of "other" lifeforms.

Note 1 : The term "Earth-like" leaves quite a bit of room for interpretation.

Note 2 : Sentient life elsewhere in the universe has pretty much the same probability of being highly irritating as does life here on Earth.

	03-02-2003 07:26									#59
	Suffering from ads?

I think we're one of the frontrunners technologically in our area. After all, we haven't been contacted yet, and we can put stuff in space, but not contact anyone else. That suggests that the other species in our area are either in the same position or farther back technologically. I don't doubt that other intelligent life is out there somewhere.

	03-02-2003 08:26									#60
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Boris, some Christians think that there are other lifeforms, some don't.

I'm well aware of that, what I was wondering was why some Christians don't. AFAIK, there is no Biblical injunction against alien species, and as I mentioned, one part even refers to God's "other flocks." Considering the vastness of the universe is not in dispute, I wonder why some Christians would choose to believe this, except out of some sort of earth-centrism.

quote: I used to weigh on the pro-alien side until I looked at the evolutionary arguments, the possibility of life forming from scratch, given the amount of time we estimate for the universe. The odds are not good, and we still don't know what it takes to make life from scratch, so it seems reasonable to presume that there will be additional conditions for life to form.

Not sure where you're getting this from (my hunch is Creationist sources ), but we really don't know if the odds are "not good" or not. In fact, it has been theorized that the odds of ambiogenesis on an earth-like world are close to 1. And then we don't know if sentient life needs an earth-like world or not--it may very well be possible under completely different conditions.

At any rate, I don't see what any of that has to do with a Christian not believing in alien life forms. After all, an omnipotent God can presumably create life when and where it wishes. It it wanted, every planet in the entire universe could be populated entirely with magical unicorns.

Throw God into the mix, and "odds" don't matter.

quote: Wasteful? Maybe God likes the universe neat and tidy.

What's so neat and tidy about 125 billion galaxies full of all kinds of stars, planets, gas clouds, etc., all rotating around, and yet no lifeforms to enjoy the bulk of it?