02-02-2003 17:36									#1
	Stalingrad remembered. Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

60 years ago in February 2 of 1943 the Stalingrad’s battle was over. The encircled army of field marshal von Paulus surrendered to Red army. Today all Russians give their respect to veterans of WW2 whose courage saved our country, and to memory of thousands of soldiers who sacrificed their lives for this victory. We consider this battle as the most decisive battle of World War II. What do you think about this battle? Was it the most decisive battle of WW2 or not?

Another question. Stalingrad was completely destroyed during first months of battle. After the war it was rebuild and after the death of Stalin it was renamed to Volgograd. Today some people here in Russia suggest that name Stalingrad should be returned to city. What do you think about this? As far as I know Paris have the Stalingrad’s Street or Stalingrad’s square (I’m not really sure is it street or square). So, should we or shouldn’t we return to the city of Volgograd its previous name?

	02-02-2003 17:59									#2
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Better than Hitlergrad.

Yup, decisive turning point for that theatre. Midway was the turning point in the Pacific.

	02-02-2003 18:03									#3
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Midway?

	02-02-2003 18:18									#4
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I was a bit surprised to see the name of the city change but it is up to Russians to decide its name be that Stalingrad or not

	02-02-2003 18:20									#5
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What am I saying? I forgot...El Alemein was the turning point in your little corner of the world. Stalingrad...wasn't that a sleepy town in the Ukrain? No no, I recall now...it's in Bosnia!

	02-02-2003 18:26									#6
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The sacrifice of the Red Army is all to often ignored in the West. I, at least, do not.

I don't think that it should be renamed Stalingrad; since it was Stalin's disastrous leadership which led to the Germans getting that far in the first place.

	02-02-2003 18:38									#7
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Sandman, by that logic maybe it should be named Hitlergrad. Because of him the whole of Russia didn't fall. Also, it's a toss up as to which was the worse mass murderer...

	02-02-2003 20:21									#8
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I pay due remembrance to all those who died in that battle. Certainly the war efforts of the USSR were indispensible in defeating Nazism. Yet another reason why the war was such a stupid, horrible catastrophe that led people around the world into senseless slaughter.

As for the name--I think changing it back to Stalingrad would probably be unwise, given his general reputation and legacy. There are still plenty of people alived who suffered under his reign and who had loved ones die because of him. There's no reason to change it back. Keeping it as Volgograd doesn't diminish the heroic efforts of those who died.

	02-02-2003 20:23									#9
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Yep, that was a big battle. Situation looked bad for you guys, but managed to throw the enemy back. Quite heroic battle.

	02-02-2003 20:25									#10
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Boris, you already back on poly?

	02-02-2003 20:34									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Datajack Franit Boris, you already back on poly?

Did I say I was leaving?

	02-02-2003 20:35									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Datajack Franit Boris, you already back on poly?

*Looks*


Yep, it looks just like him!

	02-02-2003 20:36									#13
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Yes, I think it was a turning point.

To the name: this is up to your people to decide, but I agree with Boris, I wouldn´t like Stalingrad. BTW, was the city founded under this name? It was quite big - was it an older city which got the name Stalingrad during Stalin´s rule? Like Leningrad/St Petersburg?

	02-02-2003 20:43									#14
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BeBro :

It's original name was Tsaritsyn.

	02-02-2003 20:48									#15
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Well, that Tzar name wouldn't work, hmm.

Lancergrad!

	02-02-2003 20:51									#16
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Hm, I guess that refers to the Czar? So they replaced it with Stalin

Well, then also this old name seems to be no option unless Russia returns to monarchy...

	02-02-2003 21:41									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Was it the most decisive battle of WW2 or not?

The bloodiest and most horrific, sure. And those who fought there exhibited awesome courage. Certainly a decisive battle...but "the most decisive battle of WW2," that's a question I can't answer. It can be debated until the Crack of Doom.

	02-02-2003 22:30									#18
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BeBro,
Yes Ilya (may I use your previous name Eli?) is absolutely correct. Stalingrad’s original name is Tzaricin, but it’s not about Tzar or monarchy. Tzaricin (later Stalingrad, later Volgograd) was founded on river Tzarca (Queen). The name of this river was the origin for name of the city. It was renamed to Stalingard later. I guess because it’s a place where during Russian civil war Red army had devastating victory over White Army. The person who commanded defense of the Tzaricin was Stalin.

	02-02-2003 23:11									#19
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In the Russian Civil War, Stalingrad had been defended by Stalin, Budenny and Voroshilov, If I'm not mistaken, then Stalin claimed the credit and changed its name.

The city's name was c hanged to Volgograd during the de-Stalinization of the USSR after Khruschev and now wants to turn back. Hmmm...

I think It would be a good idea, after all it is that name that gave it it's glory as the TRUE turning point in WW2. If the Russians are smart enough to forget names (even if they are those of dictators) and remember history, they will have no problem in renaming the city.

Now, if we are talking about true heroic leaders, the city should be named Chuikograd after Vasili Chukov, commander of 62nd Army which held on to the city for all those months.

	02-02-2003 23:32									#20
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quote: In the Russian Civil War, Stalingrad had been defended by Stalin, Budenny and Voroshilov, If I'm not mistaken, then Stalin claimed the credit and changed its name.

Yep, but as you know those guys become his loyal servants later.

quote: Now, if we are talking about true heroic leaders, the city should be named Chuikograd after Vasili Chukov, commander of 62nd Army which held on to the city for all those months.

I'm sure you mean Chuikov. Btw, It was Zhukov who developed the plan of operation ‘Uranus’ some credit goes for him too.
My opinion- I really don’t know. Stalin was bastard, but this victory worth too much for us.

	02-02-2003 23:44									#21
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quote: (may I use your previous name Eli? )

No.

	02-02-2003 23:58									#22
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As you wish.

	03-02-2003 00:38									#23
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Why should the name be changed back? I don't think the Red Army respected Stalin. Stalin caused the death of many of them because he insisted on defending the city of his name sake which was only named after him because he was a dictator. The city was never named after him because of his benevolence. Bah!

	03-02-2003 01:14									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Sandman, by that logic maybe it should be named Hitlergrad. Because of him the whole of Russia didn't fall. Also, it's a toss up as to which was the worse mass murderer...

by that account you should rename washington d.c. into george d. c. patton - after all, it was washington's crappy leadership that made the war longer (you see how easy it is to make dismissive claims like that).

stalin certainly killed a bunch of people, but he also gave them guns and ammo. literally all the leaders in the ww2 made some critical errors. should roosevelt be wiped off the plaques of many a federal building just because he wasn't precognitive enough to sense that the japanese attack was around the corner? churchill already caused one gallipoli landing, then he screwed up crete and greece, and i guess singapore disaster speaks for itself. then again, both of them made some superb decisions. not one, many of them. stalin evacuated the whole of ukrainian industry - for that alone he deserves praise.

as a fellow eastern european i have a high distaste of dictators, yet i cannot avoid feeling grateful to both soviet people and (yes and) their leader at that time. if it were not for them, all the slavs (me included), gypsies, jews etc would have ended up as soap (my grandfather lived to see liberation from a concentration camp, many other relatives were not so lucky).

as a kid i visited stalingrad, went to the museum and read several books on it. if not the biggest german defeat ever (like destruction of army group center in 1944), this was truly a 'battle for the planet'. i am sorry if this would insult americans and british (who fought bravely for our freedom, too) but the contribution of russians in liberation of europe is a tad more important.

as for the name - it should go back to stalingrad, if not for anything else, then for the battle's sake. volgograd is a stupid name, even czariczin would be better. if there is place de stalingrad in paris, i have no clue why russians would name it so blandly, after a river...

	03-02-2003 01:18									#25
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oh yes and i support remaining kaliningrad into koenigsberg. that would make immanuel kant stop turning in his grave...

	03-02-2003 01:23									#26
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I don't know if it's a good idea to rename a city after a bloodthirsty butcher and madman, who was responsible for the death of millions.
And everyone who claims that Russia has maybe already reflected its history so much that it's "no problem", don't be too sure about it. The russian public hasn't even yet really started to get over with their past. Gulags are still some kind of taboo etc.
Bad idea generally, IMHO.

	03-02-2003 01:24									#27
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You Russians really kicked Nazi @ss. I prefer the name left as Volograd, its is the major city on the Volga, is it not?

My school had an exchange student from Volograd last year. she was my age (15 at the time) but she was a senior. (Last grade in secondary school for you Europeans) She was a genius.

	03-02-2003 01:28									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III I don't know if it's a good idea to rename a city after a bloodthirsty butcher and madman, who was responsible for the death of millions.

to do list:
1) kick napoleon's coffin out of the invalid's dome
2) bring down cromwell's statue that is before the parliament
3) destroy just about every trace of past leaders, especially great ones - their greatness is measured by the misery of their subjects

(and to counter your argument - but he did it in the 20th century - count the number of democratic regimes in europe when stalin got to power).

as for the issue whether russians hate him or not, you gotta ask them. i'm serbian

	03-02-2003 03:43									#29
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quote: Originally posted by LaRusso to do list: 1) kick napoleon's coffin out of the invalid's dome 2) bring down cromwell's statue that is before the parliament

Why bother me with Cromwell and Napoleon? What kind of argument is this anyway? How are they of any importance for the issue?

quote: 3) destroy just about every trace of past leaders, especially great ones - their greatness is measured by the misery of their subjects

Mhm, surely true. Every great leader was starving his own population to death and had a totalitarian ideal and a paranoid personality...

quote: (and to counter your argument - but he did it in the 20th century - count the number of democratic regimes in europe when stalin got to power).

Tough times for democracies, when Hitler, Stalin and thelikes are lurking out there. Sure it was an extremist time, but Stalin was even exceeding all the other dictators beside Hitler by far with his brutality and totalitarianism. He was one main responsible for the extremism in his time. Nothing to be honored for.

quote: as for the issue whether russians hate him or not, you gotta ask them.

If they hate him: Good, they won't rename the city.
If the don't hate hiom, they really have a problem with their own past.

quote: i'm serbian

Maybe that explains it

	03-02-2003 03:45									#30
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I disagree that Stalingrad was THE turning point. I think the Battle of Moscow a year before was far more important. Had Moscow fallen to German hands, not only would the Russians lose their most important industrial and communication center, they would also lose Leningrad for sure, and the Russian morale would be completely in the cellar.

I only consider to see Stalingrad as part of many turning points on Eastern Front. Beginning with the Battle of Moscow and ending with the Battle of Kursk. Had Germans won at Kursk, this war could have dragged on for much longer.