03-02-2003 02:47									#1
	Persia, oh Persia Inflate your Upload Space

What have you gone and done?
You listened to Caesar
A pathetic wheezer
So Alex comes calling with a gun

------------------------------------------

Is there a way to profit from this?

YES!

WE Alliance with Greece against Persia (but not Rome)
We RoP Greece
And take Persia out from underneath Alex's nose
In one or two turns tops. The alliance will end when Persia falls.

I know many will question this, but we need to remain opportunistic. We have enough Infantry now to allow a RoP with Greece. To add insult to injury...

We give Greece an opening across our southern blockace to reach Rome. Watch them move huge forces down there, then SEAL the border

The perfect diplomatic backstab.

Please discuss

Ssgt roadcage (retired)

	03-02-2003 02:51									#2
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I do not like the idea of an ROP with anybody.

	03-02-2003 03:13									#3
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RoP's are a tool. And any tool can be used wisely or unwisely. I believe that this is an example of the former.

We have excellent prospects of taking the Persian cities and simultaneously locking the Greek forces up on the Roman side of our Southern Cavalry Wall.

Alex and Caesar deserve each other. It is our duty to ensure their meeting takes place.

	03-02-2003 04:01									#4
	Re: Persia, oh Persia Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by roadcage To add insult to injury... ............................ We give Greece an opening across our southern blockace to reach Rome. Watch them move huge forces down there, then SEAL the border The perfect diplomatic backstab. Ssgt roadcage (retired)

I have to admit, I like it.

	03-02-2003 04:29									#5
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One itty bitty problem.... because we are playing with version 1.21f, if we wipe out Persia while allied with another country against Persia, we take a rep hit for the cancellation of the alliance.

Sucky bug, but it really puts a big hole in this plan...

	03-02-2003 04:32									#6
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Ok, so don't ally, just RoP. We really don't need Greeks help, just their roads and railroads.

	03-02-2003 04:45									#7
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But in these circumstances, we cannot seal the border, except by declaring war to Greece.
The interest of getting Hamadan (the greatest good a RoP would bring) is low when compared to the risk of having the Greeks loose on our territory. Especially since Hamadan is closer to Athen than to Macross City, and knowing that old Ephesus and Halicarnassus are nearby (cultural risk)

	03-02-2003 04:46									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor But in these circumstances, we cannot seal the border, except by declaring war to Greece. The interest of getting Hamadan (the greatest good a RoP would bring) is low when compared to the risk of having the Greeks loose on our territory. Especially since Hamadan is closer to Athen than to Macross City, and knowing that old Ephesus and Halicarnassus are nearby (cultural risk)

Agree.

	03-02-2003 06:11									#9
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quote: But in these circumstances, we cannot seal the border, except by declaring war to Greece.

The border sealing I am talking about is what we now have in place far to the south. Notice that it is done solely on our own territory. There is no foul. The twist is to 'show' Greece a way to the south, and once they take the bait re-close and trap them there.

quote: The interest of getting Hamadan (the greatest good a RoP would bring) is low when compared to the risk of having the Greeks loose on our territory.

We have ample Infantry and other units to garrison all cities. Infact, treachery by Alex would be beneficial.

quote: Especially since Hamadan is closer to Athen than to Macross City, and knowing that old Ephesus and Halicarnassus are nearby (cultural risk)

While distance from Palace does favor Greece, we have superior overall culture to Greece. And additionally, we have one settler in reserve which could be used to rebuild Hamadan in a location of our choosing most. This would make the city size 1 100% Apolytonian natinality. This is not a serious flip risk.

	03-02-2003 06:33									#10
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quote: Originally posted by roadcage The border sealing I am talking about is what we now have in place far to the south. Notice that it is done solely on our own territory. There is no foul. The twist is to 'show' Greece a way to the south, and once they take the bait re-close and trap them there.

If I understand the plan (sorry, I'm tired, and there are some words here I don't understand), we sign a RoP with Greece so that Alex sends his troops south to fight the Romans. Once Alex's troops are there, we abolish our RoP so that they cannot return home (I suppose that's what "sealing the border" means).
If I am correct, we'd have to declare war to Alex to end the RoP before the 20 turns are over. And if we do, we'll suffer a major reputational hit (I think the game is programmed to consider this the worst of treachery IIRC).

	03-02-2003 06:44									#11
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No. Sealing the border is placing a line of units along the border so that the Greek units cannot find an empty tile to move across. We do not break the RoP, we simply make it useful to us and not useful to the partner. Perfectly acceptable under the current Diplomatic protocols.

	03-02-2003 06:54									#12
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OK, I understand now.
Pretty nice plan But I will sleep before saying if I'm in favor of it or not (gotta evaluate the risks of having the Greeks on our territory : as you know, I'm against war)

	03-02-2003 13:11									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor OK, I understand now. Pretty nice plan But I will sleep before saying if I'm in favor of it or not (gotta evaluate the risks of having the Greeks on our territory : as you know, I'm against war)

hi ,

, .....

well then there is only one solution , ...... if you dont want war , just get rid of anything that can creat war , ...

in other words , ask the greeks to leave , if they dont get it , ..... "peace true power" , .....

if we are going to let anybody use our land we should get something in return , at least 25 LPT , ......

have a nice day

	03-02-2003 18:18									#14
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Panang, what we get for the RoP is easy approach and quick victory over Persia, and staging for the Aztec Ivory tile if and when we decide we want it.

But it is clear that despite how truly beautiful (in a fiendish sort of way) this plan is, it will probably not be executed in this game due to Senate inaction regarding the necessary RoP. This is a shame.

For those who dare to dream, the elements are:

in 1360
1-RoP Greeks
2-Upgrade Greek roads all the way to within Arty range of Hamadan
3-Advance a Cav from the southern wall to observe Hamadan
4-Advance and fire Arty individually noting Hamadan hp status. Reserve remaining Arty-see 8 and 12 this turn
5-When suitably weakened, Assault Hamadan with Cav and bring in adequate forces to contain resistance
6-Secure Hamadan
7-continue rail development around Hamadan
8-rail eastward to and including a certain Mountain Tile that is Arty site for remaining Persian City
9-position workers on mountain sw of E-town to road next turn
10-position worker on adjacent greek tile for road next turn (9 and 10 create alternate path out of Greece if req'd)
11-position workers for road approaches towards remaining Persian town from Greek Heidelberg.
12-position Arty to fire on remaining Persian city
13-position suitable Cav forces to attack remaining Persian town next turn.
14-Position Infantry to protect all Arty potentially exposed to Persian forces
15-Position some unit (Infantry?) infront of the Arty to watch Persian city.

Then continue with other 1360 business

1365

1-Fire Arty into remaining Persian City
2-Assault and capture
3-misc tile development around captured city
4-re-deploy all forces for defensive posture

have a nice day!

Ssgt roadcage (retired)

	03-02-2003 18:27									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos One itty bitty problem.... because we are playing with version 1.21f, if we wipe out Persia while allied with another country against Persia, we take a rep hit for the cancellation of the alliance. Sucky bug, but it really puts a big hole in this plan...

Ah! Another reason to install patch 1.29 !

	03-02-2003 18:36									#16
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hi ,

Aro , we shall need a large map of the terrain we are after to plan , .....

could you do it

have a nice day

	03-02-2003 19:43									#17
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BFM, this is already addressed in other replies above.

Panag, a map would be nice for explanations, but it is not needed for planning. The in-game GUI is all I need to do planning.

	03-02-2003 19:48									#18
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It's possible, panag... But I'm not inclined to sign any RoP right now, without a clear majority in the Senate. Could some Senator post a poll or something? In any case, I can't do this in the chat. Should we postpone the chat because of that?
I like the roadcage plan, but there's some polemic about it... Many Senators don't want any war now, and we need more info about how this can affect war weariness, approval rate and the WLPD's.

	03-02-2003 20:30									#19
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Regarding war weariness, it is determined civ by civ. Our last Persian activity was what 800 years ago? There is no outstanding war weariness with Persia.

I estimate that Persia might have upwards of 10 units. If we killed them all in their territory, it would be insignificant to what we had with Germany.

I figure maybe 5 in each city. Look at the plan. There is ww potential for one turn only and that would only be for the units killed at Hamadan. The Units in the other Persian City would be killed on the demise turn and never figured in.

	03-02-2003 20:36									#20
	Remove this text

I'm for it, roadcage, I like the plan. I also used to be a builder in the past, not anymore...
But we need the Senate approval, it's in the CoL.
This means postpone the chat. Should we?

	03-02-2003 20:50									#21
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If you want to 'handle' Persia, yes.

-edited rest is moot

Ssgt roadcage (retired)

Last edited by roadcage on 03-02-2003 at 22:49

	03-02-2003 21:58									#22
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I like this plan. I would post this poll for you, but I'm a Judge.

To post a poll you need only "create new thread" write this text in the thread, and at the bottom is an option to attach a poll to the thread. Click on that option and enter in the # of options (3) that you want.

On the next screen it will ask you to enter in the details of your poll. Be sure to set it for 72 hours. Then submit the new poll. It's relatively easy to do.

--Togas

	03-02-2003 22:06									#23
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Roadcage, the way I'm looking at the CoL, you or any other Regional Governor could post that bill.

Ironic that an RG can post bills the DM can't; isn't it?

	03-02-2003 22:07									#24
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This chat need to be postponed, no doubts about it (we have already partial plans for workers integration, but we still missing some of the RA's orders under that new situation), and we surely will have an interesting discussion about a new war. The SMC have to plan it...
The FAM Shiber is postponing his orders too. As soon the poll is posted, I'll schedule a new date and time, respecting the 72 hours limit. I'll post this announcement in the threads about the chat.

	03-02-2003 22:15									#25
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-edited, now moot, the Poll is up

Last edited by roadcage on 03-02-2003 at 22:31

	03-02-2003 22:47									#26
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Please note that there is HUGE Corps of Engineers involvement especially in 1360. Therefore it is essential that road and rail support be done in conjunction with SMC and ordinary tile improvements be done later in the turns. This is essentially the opposite of our recent practice.

	04-02-2003 00:34									#27
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quote: Standing orders for term 8: 2. Clean up all polution inside our cultural boundary as it appears as soon as possible. 3. Workers not specifly requested for other use by my orders or RGs can be used by SMC to support the war effort via building road /rail in friendly and neutral territory or else forming a wall of workers to prevent landings. They may also be used to improve tiles in our empire at the discretion of the highest ranking DM RG present at the chat and/or the President.

Also, the 24 native workers in reserve for polution & the 6 in reserve for Feropolis should be able to handle the road/rail network easily.

	04-02-2003 00:41									#28
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I strongly denounce this plan as completely unessecary warmongering, that exposes us to far greater risk than benefit, and is simply asking for us to be plunged into another unwanted and ill advised war!

Long have we stood idly by while the warmonger's in Apolytonia led us blindly into war after war. Too long. And now, we are so far gone that the warmongers beleive they can lead us into war without even needing to spread their 'we need the benefit' propaganda! And I say, No More! This time, we shall not idly stand by while our sons die for a war without cause!

	04-02-2003 00:46									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Thud This time, we shall not idly stand by while our sons die for a war without cause!

Who is this "we"?

	04-02-2003 02:18									#30
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I would like to comment on this further, but I am particularly busy today, however, I will post my opinions and possible plans this evening, Pacific Time.