03-02-2003 21:23									#61
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Speaking as someone that has been divoced, I can agree with most of the factors cited. My marriage ended because my wife " didn't feel about me the way she thought she should feel " after a few years ( likely because she was attracted to this bodybuilder guy that she started seeing shortly after the split). There was no problem or issue between us and she refused to see a counsellor. So I ended up a statistic since no matter what I wanted, all it takes for a divorce to happen is for one side to want out. She just did not value marriage as I did and I can attribute our divorce to

-- little stigma
-- fairytail expectations of marriage
-- ease of obtaining divorce if someone else interesting comes along

Note that in my first marriage we both had good role models in that both sets of parents are in marriages of greater that 40 years . . .


But in the long run, divorce was good for me. Rather than be with a woman that did not care for me, I found someone else and have remarried. My faith in the concept of marriage is unshaken despite a bad experience.

Someone said why get married ?? Well for us, it was a public declaration of our love and commitment before our friends and family ( oh and we had 50 guests and paid for it ourself-- and her mother "gave her away" (dad deceased). The fact that we are now "legally" bound together pleases us.--

	03-02-2003 22:43									#62
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Marriage is for losers who can't survive alone!

	03-02-2003 23:01									#63
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I pity the young woman who marries only to have her dream wedding, and not because she loves the man she's marrying.

	03-02-2003 23:05									#64
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quote: I meant that the Christain Church pepetuates it by not altering its service. It must still mean the same as it always did. However the people getting married only see it as a tradition thing.

Well we saw it as a troll, because I simply believe you are wrong. The Church sees it as simply tradition (ie, you don't have to even be given away, if you don't want to, in a Church wedding). I don't know why you think it is required in a Church service to be given away.

	04-02-2003 00:23									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Marriage is for losers who can't survive alone!

0.001/ 100

	04-02-2003 00:35									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I meant that the Christain Church pepetuates it by not altering its service. It must still mean the same as it always did. However the people getting married only see it as a tradition thing. Well we saw it as a troll, because I simply believe you are wrong. The Church sees it as simply tradition (ie, you don't have to even be given away, if you don't want to, in a Church wedding). I don't know why you think it is required in a Church service to be given away.

True enough. But the fact remains that no one gives the groom away. The implication is that the groom is an autonomous being, but the bride is not (unless she has a "non-traditional" wedding -- and it says everything that a bride's declaration of autonomy violates tradition).

	04-02-2003 05:07									#67
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quote: Originally posted by orange honestly, the breakdown of the Male Dominated household. Equality in the sexes brings this kind of thing about. When women can start saying "No, I won't sit here and take this from him" instead of just simply going along with whatever's wrong with the marriage, more divorces will occur.

I think this is a bit of a myth really - one of the biggest of the feminist movement.

From what I have seen of marriage it seems designed to meet a woman's needs more than a man's. It bonds a man to help raise the children and provides a life partner. It puts all sorts of taboos and penalties around infidelity. This is a construct of female sexuality not male.

Consider males - they are not naturally monogamous or family responsible or home oriented the way most women are. Genetic studies are showing men would rather be out there playing the field, have several wives and father as many children as they can, preferably without having to raise them.

	04-02-2003 05:11									#68
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The statistics are misleading Mr. Fun... although around 50 percent of marriages in divorce, this does not take into account people who get multiple marriages. A significant portion of the couples that get divorced have been divorced before.

	04-02-2003 05:51									#69
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There's a book called "the Selfish Gene" which some of you should read.

This idea that women are just passive victims of marriage is just nonsense.

Genetic studies are now revealing surprisingly high rates of children in families not fathered by the husband. This includes first children in a marriage, which suggests what women look for in a husband/life partner is about someone who will help raise the children, even if they are not their own. Both male and female seem not to have progressed much beyond the hunter gatherer instinct.

	04-02-2003 05:57									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I think this is a bit of a myth really - one of the biggest of the feminist movement. From what I have seen of marriage it seems designed to meet a woman's needs more than a man's. It bonds a man to help raise the children and provides a life partner. It puts all sorts of taboos and penalties around infidelity. This is a construct of female sexuality not male. Consider males - they are not naturally monogamous or family responsible or home oriented the way most women are. Genetic studies are showing men would rather be out there playing the field, have several wives and father as many children as they can, preferably without having to raise them.

A valid point. But I think the root cause of divorce is women oriented...I don't think men who get married think that "hmm, i'd rather be playing the field right about now...i'm getting sick of wifey...divorce!"

I think it's more a realization on the woman's part that they can't change the man and shouldn't have gotten deeply involved with him in the first place...only now, they are more able to get out of such a relationship. I don't think Men seek divorce because it is an admission of failure...for women I don't think this is as true...

I'm not trying to be a chauvanist here, I don't *blame* women, I'm actually glad they have more power over their relationships, but that's my thoughts...

	04-02-2003 06:10									#71
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Both sides have to make compromises to make it work. Marriage is like a business partnership in a lot of ways. You need to be mature and a bit wise about it.

I think a lot of people today expect to be "in love" all the time. Its not like that for most people. Long periods of "in hate" too even in the best marriages. You have to work through it and be patient. You plant seeds and you have to nurture your little garden of love even when its not growing the way you planned.

The emotions are very very strong in a marriage, the good and bad feelings are just 2 sides of the same coin if you ask me. You go through a lot togther and you don't always see eye to eye. Those differences can colour a marriage for years and years, even forever.

Like the old song says, "I love you, hate you, love you, hate you, yet I love you till the world stops turning." That's what its like.

I think its a shame people break up over what other married people would just see as a bad patch. Its all in how you look at things - happy times together can be just around the corner and often come when least expected.

	04-02-2003 06:28									#72
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Married Nov. 8, 1964. Still married to the same woman. 38 years 2 months 26 days. You have ups and downs, just take one day at a time.

	04-02-2003 07:23									#73
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OK, there are 4 pages, so I'm not going to read them, and just post my point of view even if it's a repeat.

IMHO, there are 4 things which will lead to a stable marriage:
1. A good role model for a well working marriage
2. Full knowledge of the implications, commitment, and sacrifices that will occur with marriage
3. A LOT of thinking (and prayer, if your religious) before you actually decide to pop the question. That includes a long time with your partner to make sure you actually are compatible
4. If you honestly cannot stay married with your partner, then do NOT run into a divorce. Look at it from every possible angle, and try everything before you break down into a marriage. Never do anything serious on a whim, and make sure you can leave the marriage without any anger or regret. I'm paraphrasing Dr. Phil (my mom watches the show, and the TV is in the same room as my computer), and I'd say it's the best advice on divorce.

That's my 2, err....4 cents.

BTW, good for you, Joseph.

	04-02-2003 08:23									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph Married Nov. 8, 1964. Still married to the same woman. 38 years 2 months 26 days. You have ups and downs, just take one day at a time.

Congrats. Amazing how much joy a strong marriage gives to other people.

	04-02-2003 10:18									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph Married Nov. 8, 1964. Still married to the same woman. 38 years 2 months 26 days. You have ups and downs, just take one day at a time.

congrats

	04-02-2003 10:30									#76
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a happiness you'll never know

	04-02-2003 12:21									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident The women who are getting divorce aren't divorcing abusers. They are divorcing average joes. The abuser keep on abusing. In fact the problem is sadly worse today than it was before. although that may be because it was unreported before.

This isn't always true. My wife divorced her previous husband because he abused alcohol and (verbally) abused her.

I agree with many of the observations so far and will add one more: people expect a lot more out of their spouses than they used to. In the old days, if a woman kept the house clean and the kids fed, didn't "have a headache" too often and didn't cheat on her husband, she was a good wife and could expect to stay married forever. If a man earned a decent living, didn't blow it all at the bar or the track, and didn't let his wife find out he was cheating on her, he was a good husband and could expect to stay married forever.

	04-02-2003 13:29									#78
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I would like to point out that in present society marriage is more for women than men. It is not some tool to oppress women. In fact it is something used by women to gain more control in the relationship. With marriage women will have more control. She can file for a divorce and take a guy for just about all he's worth. This threat of divorce will keep a lot of guys in line. Also women like marriage ceremonies for some reason. In my city we have billboards advertising marriagespectacular.com. Women just love looking at wedding gowns and such. I don't get it.

Men are often trapped or pressured into marriage. They usually ask a woman to get married because that is what is expected after a certain amount of time. Many women will not just continue dating guys for years on end without a ring.

I also find material things like rings are far more imporant to women than men. I haven't really figured out why though.

	04-02-2003 13:58									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I would like to point out that in present society marriage is more for women than men. It is not some tool to oppress women. In fact it is something used by women to gain more control in the relationship. With marriage women will have more control. She can file for a divorce and take a guy for just about all he's worth. This threat of divorce will keep a lot of guys in line. Also women like marriage ceremonies for some reason. In my city we have billboards advertising marriagespectacular.com. Women just love looking at wedding gowns and such. I don't get it.

It's just plain old socialization. Women like looking at wedding gowns; guys like looking at grown men playing games. Go figure.

But, here's what's fascinating. One of the things that used to be true -- I haven't seen statistics on this in a while, but I suspect it still is -- is that:
Women who divorce find their standard of living going down, but their quality of life going up
Men who divorce find their standard of living going up but their quality of life going down

In other words, marriage makes men poorer but happier; divorce makes women poorer but happier. Not surprisingly, married men tend to live longer than divorced men -- and, disturbingly, divorced women tend to live longer than married women.

Marriage is mostly for women? I'm not so sure.

quote: Men are often trapped or pressured into marriage. They usually ask a woman to get married because that is what is expected after a certain amount of time. Many women will not just continue dating guys for years on end without a ring.

I suspect this may be changing, and is also class-based.

quote: I also find material things like rings are far more imporant to women than men. I haven't really figured out why though.

No different from guys and cars, really.

	04-02-2003 14:43									#80
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I think you mistyped that one sentence.

I think you meant divorce makes men pooer and unhappier.

or my version might be messed up to. But I think I get your point

You may be right about the cars. I'm not a very good example as I'm not materialistic. I don't really care for cars all that much. Sure my pickup is nice, and I prefer pickup trucks. But it is just a vehicle after all. If I was poor I would just drive a cheaper car like a Honda.

	04-02-2003 15:38									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I think you mistyped that one sentence. I think you meant divorce makes men pooer and unhappier. or my version might be messed up to. But I think I get your point

Nope, I meant what I said. Even when you factor in alimony, a man will spend less money supporting an ex-wife than he will supporting a wife (but he'll be more pissed off about it, too ). Moreover, alimony payments tend to be fixed at the time of the divorce, whereas paychecks tend to rise; thus, over time, he will spend a smaller and smaller percentage of his pay on alimony.

	04-02-2003 15:41									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse There's a book called "the Selfish Gene" which some of you should read.

The one written by Richard Dawkins? I don't think we read the same book...

	04-02-2003 15:50									#83
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Marriage to the same person past 4 years gets boring (for some). That might play a part. Plus marriage can change people. I know it changed me.

	04-02-2003 19:03									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger The one written by Richard Dawkins? I don't think we read the same book...

I haven't read the book, just like I've taken just about every side on this thread

Hey come back Mr Fun, my last post was uncalled for

	04-02-2003 19:09									#85
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Marriage is like getting up in the morning and having the same cereal for breakfast for the rest of your life.

Even Cocoa puffs get old after a while.

	04-02-2003 19:55									#86
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quote: Men who divorce find their standard of living going up but their quality of life going down

Have you factored in the fact that if there are kids (and many times there are) the women usually (at least 70%) gets custody?

	05-02-2003 00:24									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Men who divorce find their standard of living going up but their quality of life going down Have you factored in the fact that if there are kids (and many times there are) the women usually (at least 70%) gets custody?

That would simply reinforce my point. If she gets the kids, he spends less money (child support, even when it is paid by the ex -- which it often isn't -- doesn't come close to what you'd spend raising the kid yourself). But she does get the kid, which generally improves quality of life.

	05-02-2003 02:01									#88
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No, that weakens your point, IMO. The insinuation was that marrage makes men happier. That isn't the case. The kids are what makes the man happy. The marriage doesn't have to exist for that to occur.

	05-02-2003 05:23									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse a happiness you'll never know

What makes you say that?

	05-02-2003 05:45									#90
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Well its obvious isn't it?