03-02-2003 16:55									#31
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quote: I see Green/Wealth or Green/Knowledge wasn't even polled? Then that could also be considered as inconclusive, unless i'm missing the poll...

Nobody ever seriously argued that we should switch from Knowledge to Wealth, hence it wasn't polled. Even when it was suggested during the last poll, it was just an idle suggestion that it was decided wouldn't work (the only reason it was even brought up was that Maniac wanted to know if Green + Wealth + GA through Psych might be equivalent to FM without having to use it; and the reuslt was no)

EDIT: And it could only really be considered inconclusive if you also consider a base location poll that doesn't include every single square there is an a particular area to be inconclusive as well.

	03-02-2003 18:57									#32
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Even if this poll is constitutional (in the same way as Archaic's whining 'I have problems with my computer' had nothing to do with constitution) it just seems not fair to me. The fact Pande waited till the end of previous poll doesn't help with that. Archaic (in DLP thread) is right - if he had done such a thing, we would have bitten his head off.

I'm pretty surprised (and upset) that FM has won (maybe thanks to those darn Fascists ), but methinks it's time every anti-FMer should admit the defeat and give FM a try, at least for a one turnchat. Then poll this issue again and see if anything changes.

Oh and I also find astonishing that though so many people are against this poll, they haven't abstained. Doesn't this mean that everybody who voted in this poll, either for FM or Green, should accept its result?

Voted ABSTAIN.

	03-02-2003 19:00									#33
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I don't think the fascists... all 1 of them ... were a deciding factor.

And abstain came to mind, but I wanted to do my best to help FM win this one just in case it counts.

quote: Archaic (in DLP thread) is right - if he had done such a thing, we would have bitten his head off.

Thank you for acknowledging that, as that (the double standard) is probably my biggest problem with this action.

	03-02-2003 19:51									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Cedayon I don't think the fascists... all 1 of them ... were a deciding factor.

Yep, but if anything goes wrong, it's done by fascists.

	03-02-2003 20:08									#35
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quote: Archaic (in DLP thread) is right - if he had done such a thing, we would have bitten his head off.

WTF?!
And Pan's head isn't bitten off here? Pretty much everyone who replied in here, whether they were for or against FM, were against this poll, even the commissioner!
How would this be different against Archaic?

	03-02-2003 20:23									#36
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Because you people hate me more, and once the left wing groups get online you can just imagine the stink they'd kick up. (I'm patiently waiting for them to get online so I can see what's pulled to try and defend Pan.)

	03-02-2003 20:31									#37
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im still thinking

	03-02-2003 20:33									#38
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Well, part of it is your own fault.
And you think everyone likes Pande? At the moment i'm the only one defending Pande, and i remember at one point you had several people supporting you, and even voting for you.

	03-02-2003 21:31									#39
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*Shrugs* Like I've always said, I just present my opinions straight up. That might make me seem like a callous bastard at times (Yes, there are times I don't seem that way. ), but hey, at least I'm an honest politician.

And like I've already said, seeing as Pan used what happened with the FM Poll's during my term to win office in this term, I'm shocked that he could even consider doing this poll. If it is consitutional, than a good portion of his campaign platform was just a lie. If it's not, then this poll itself is a lie. Take your pick.

	03-02-2003 23:23									#40
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Really? I thought it was mostly about him carrying out the peoples will, and about you messing up your term in December.

	04-02-2003 00:27									#41
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As far as I'm concerned, this poll is legal, just like Pandemoniak's orders for the previous turnchat were, as the economics poll hadn't yet ended.

Having said that, I voted FM. Maybe another time the green proposal might work, when a greater portion of our citizens are specialists, or when we have more infrastructure.

	04-02-2003 01:18									#42
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Absolutely this is ok to do. Archaic posted numerous, frequent polls on the subject. The subject matter was also identical, simply rephrased into twisted pseudo-legalese. This is 'whinging' at its most apparent.

	04-02-2003 03:33									#43
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hmmm, i'll vote in this poll, but i won't enjoy it

	04-02-2003 04:40									#44
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This poll may be in bad taste, but as has been pointed out it doesn’t violate the constitution. Besides what more can we expect from politics. This move by Pande, if successful, politically would be brilliant given that FM would be prevented from being chosen as the social engineering economic choice, while at the same time being perfectly constitutional.

Personally I would like to see move choices on the polls for SE, just because Green and FM beat out planned in an earlier poll, the sentiments might change over time, therefore we should have all available options on the table to choose from. In the mean time, since I have little choice, I will vote for Green/Wealth (not my ideal choice, nevertheless nothing better has been presented).

	04-02-2003 13:43									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Cedayon Is the green + wealth proposal (from Maniac) going to be considered seriously? In absense of that I'll have to vote for FM

quote: Originally posted by Maniac I'll wait with voting until I've checked the viability of the green+wealth proposal. Cedayon's research in the previous poll doesn't indicate so though.

	04-02-2003 14:12									#46
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quote: Originally posted by lucky22 Absolutely this is ok to do. Archaic posted numerous, frequent polls on the subject. The subject matter was also identical, simply rephrased into twisted pseudo-legalese. This is 'whinging' at its most apparent.

Taking away the polls I posted with errors in the poll (Forgot to put in an end time, etc), I only posted 2 polls. Furthermore, you said I was wrong to do so. And Pan used that as an election issue now not once, but twice. Yet when Pan does it, you suddenly change your tune? Double ****ing standards.


Pan, both of those two did the research and showed Green/Wealth to be inferior to FM, or weren't you paying attention? Guess what both of them again voted for? Oh yes, and lookie at the vote totals too. Weren't you complaining at the end of the last one and saying "There's too many votes!". Guess you can throw that particular whinge out the window.

	04-02-2003 15:01									#47
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quote: Oh and I also find astonishing that though so many people are against this poll, they haven't abstained. Doesn't this mean that everybody who voted in this poll, either for FM or Green, should accept its result?

It's called hedging your bets. We don't think this poll is valid, but if it (for whatever reason) is accepted as being valid, we don't want our position to fail because we wouldn't vote. That would be a bit self-defeating.

quote: WTF?! And Pan's head isn't bitten off here? Pretty much everyone who replied in here, whether they were for or against FM, were against this poll, even the commissioner! How would this be different against Archaic?

You could delete the 'pretty much', leaving you with 'everyone'. I wouldn't support Archaic posting such a poll, and neither should anyone. By the same token, neither should anyone support Pan posting this one.

quote: At the moment i'm the only one defending Pande, and i remember at one point you had several people supporting you, and even voting for you.

There's a difference between wanting him elected DSE, and supporting him when he tries to annul the results of a poll he doesn't like.

quote: Absolutely this is ok to do. Archaic posted numerous, frequent polls on the subject. The subject matter was also identical, simply rephrased into twisted pseudo-legalese. This is 'whinging' at its most apparent.

As archaic said, he poste donly two polls, one of which it was agreed by all was flawed because it didn't give a very clear choice.

As for 'subject matter rephrased in twisted legalese' - thank you for your apt description of this poll. The rea subject - namely, a switch to FM or Green, hasn't changed a bit, and as this poll will override the results of the last one, Pan has effectively dismissed the last one and held a new one.

quote: As far as I'm concerned, this poll is legal, just like Pandemoniak's orders for the previous turnchat were, as the economics poll hadn't yet ended.

Pande gave no orders for the last chat.

quote: Personally I would like to see move choices on the polls for SE, just because Green and FM beat out planned in an earlier poll, the sentiments might change over time, therefore we should have all available options on the table to choose from.

Absolutely nothing has changed between the three polls we've had or are having o this subject. The first was a decision poll, which had a run-off due to a tie; that was the only reason there were two polls.

As for this one, I maintain that the only reason why Pande would posted this poll and simply declared the reuslt sof the last one null and void is that he didn't want to accept the results. Anyone remember Milosevic after Kosovo? He lost most of the elections, and because he didn't like the results, he just declared that they were invalid. Pretty much what can be seen here.

Now, perhaps I can come up wiyh a better analogy to describe this poll - it's equivalent to having a tie in the tech poll between two chocies, one of which you want and the other you don't. The one you don't want wins, so you post a new poll proposing the one you want as part of a beeline which someone idly suggested, and say that the previous poll is now replaced.

Is there anyone here who would do anything less than impeach a DoR who tried to do such a thing?

	04-02-2003 15:05									#49
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That's 'who would not impeach', not 'who would impeach', so I'd advise you to put your hand down.

	04-02-2003 15:09									#50
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I wouldn't just impeach. I'd do something far more than that. But I suppose you've got a point. No time for splitting hairs here. *Lowers hand*

Last edited by Archaic on 04-02-2003 at 15:30

	04-02-2003 15:25									#51
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Pethaps that should have been less than impeach. Post edited.

Last edited by GeneralTacticus on 04-02-2003 at 15:30

	04-02-2003 15:40									#52
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quote: Is there anyone here who would do anything other impeach a DoR who tried to do such a thing?

Then impeach his damn ass already and quit whining about it. If you're so sure everyone will vote for his impeachment, why not go for it. It might cost him the next elections, isn't that what you want?
All this talk about how wrong and unfair it is, and yet noone has even moved for impeachment.

And Archaic, stop playing the victim here, Pande is being far more critisized then you when you posted and unconstitutional poll.

	04-02-2003 15:43									#53
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We haven't posted an impeachment yet because we're not at all sure that it would pass - you being a case in point.

However, if you want us to impeach him, I'm sure we'd be happy to try...

	04-02-2003 15:49									#54
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I don't care what you do, i will vote against impeachment, but if you strongly believe Pande did something wrong here, and worht impeaching, you should take some action to keep your credibility.

	04-02-2003 15:53									#55
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An impeachment request should be directed to the court. That doesn't seem very active though, so I guess the High Commissioner or Alpha Talent would be fine as well. And since the Commissioner doesn't seem to have a neutral opinion in this matter...

	04-02-2003 15:55									#56
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I don't recall an impeachment request ever being submitted to the court at all, or to anyone, for that matter, just posted up and voted on (usually after some debate because the person was absent).

	04-02-2003 15:55									#57
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Neither does the AT, to be fair, you already said this poll was legal according to you, Maniac

	04-02-2003 16:04									#58
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That was my expert opinion after having reviewed all opinions.
But I'm not a member of a party proclaiming free market. I even voted FM in this poll...
So I am neither on Pandemoniak's or Archaic/GT's side.

quote: Pande gave no orders for the last chat.

Yes he did. His orders were: "No orders." If he hadn't posted those, I was considering to order the switch to FM myself as replacing DSE by absence of the real one, as the constitution orders me to do.

Edit: Or doesn't it? I'm not sure actually... It could be just an illegal election promise I made...

	04-02-2003 16:04									#59
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Wouldn't the best test of an impeachment be simply to do the poll and see if the majority of people support it? If people don't want someone impeached, they vote it down, and the impeachment fails.

	04-02-2003 16:07									#60
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I don't care. I just thought we had decided earlier the request first needed to be reviewed by the board of justices, to prevent that someone wanted an impeachment poll for every little triffle...