03-02-2003 13:45									#1
	OFFICIAL : Green Wealth Increase the size of your Attachments

Following several citizen's suggestion, this poll will determine if we switch to Green Wealth -- please also post you favourite psych allocation regarding this, or stick to FM 40/20/40.

	03-02-2003 13:52									#2
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Pande, the poll on FM has been held already. FM won. Thus, you can hold a poll on whether or not people would like Green/Wealth, for the next poll, but you cannot immediately post another poll which is effectively rehashing the previous decision.

	03-02-2003 13:57									#3
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Of course I can, and I said I would. The Green/Wealth choice hasnt been proposed facing FM while it is a very viable option. For the same reasons that I gave credit to your demand for a poll concerning FM 40/20/40, I have to answer the same way to those who proposed Green/Wealth.
And why cant I post "another poll which is effectively rehashing the previous decision. " ? Its not like if it was the same poll between green and FM, this one is answering to a very specific demand by the citizens.

	03-02-2003 14:02									#4
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Hopefully this will mean FM wins by an even larger margin - I noticed the poll in time to vote for this one...?

	03-02-2003 14:12									#5
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quote: Of course I can, and I said I would.

That you anounced your intent to do so beforehand makes no difference, especially considering the rather cryptic manner in which you expressed it.

quote: The Green/Wealth choice hasnt been proposed facing FM while it is a very viable option.

People were voting in the previous poll on economics. They've chosen which system they prefer. Thus, asking them to vote again without changing any of the parameters is a blatant attempt at inavilidating a poll result you don't like.

quote: For the same reasons that I gave credit to your demand for a poll concerning FM 40/20/40,

You did a poll on what Psych values everyone wanted for each economic system, as a prelude to the last one. There is a difference between establishing the parameters that people want before the actual poll and using them, and repolling something with a little extra tacked on to the end to see if people still think that way. You're free to do an unofficial poll on whether people would have voted Green/wealth and not just Green, or to put this poll up after the roders are implemented, but you cannot do it before.

quote: And why cant I post "another poll which is effectively rehashing the previous decision. " ? Its not like if it was the same poll between green and FM,

Tacking a values system onto an economics poll doesn't change anything, especially whent eh matter of economics has already been democratically decided.

quote: this one is answering to a very specific demand by the citizens.

If you wanted to answer that specific demand, you could have posted a poll asking if people wanted to change values to Wealth if Green won, which would become irrelevant if FM won.

	03-02-2003 14:33									#6
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Hands up everyone who saw this coming a mile away.

The Green/Wealth option had already been discussed in the previous poll, and as I recall, stats comparing it to FM 40/20/40 were already posted as well. In essence, this matter has already been decided. After your comments in the SE election about the polls I posted during my term, HOW DARE YOU go and do this.

Is it your right to put this poll up? Yes. But when? After the next turnchat, when the previous orders are already implimented. Right now, this is just an attempt to inavilidating a poll result you don't like, just like GT has already said.

So much for you accepting the will of the people. Bad form Pan.....

	03-02-2003 15:26									#7
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Pan, the Green/Wealth option may become viable, but it is not currently. Even Maniac, the person who initially proposed the option, doesn't think it's a good idea for right now.

I'll try to see your actions in a good light, for now, but I see a lot of truth in the accusation that you're just doing this to delay the effects of/reverse a poll result you don't like. Standing in the way of the people's will isn't a good idea, particularly considering your job description.

edit- I move that the results of this poll, whatever they may be, do not take effect until after the next turnchat. It would be even better to simply invalidate them, and have a new poll after the turnchat, so everyone has a chance to see FM's advantages and disadvantages in action before making a decision.

Last edited by Cedayon on 03-02-2003 at 15:57

	03-02-2003 15:56									#8
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I think Pande has every right to post this poll. Sure, people like Archaic will use this as against him as some hidden agende, but at least he posts polls

quote: For the same reasons that I gave credit to your demand for a poll concerning FM 40/20/40, I have to answer the same way to those who proposed Green/Wealth.

quote: Tacking a values system onto an economics poll doesn't change anything, especially whent eh matter of economics has already been democratically decided.

It may not change somthing now, but it is possible. If you agree that polling FM instead of FM 40/20/40 would have different results, why is it impossible that Green/Wealth will be different?

quote: Hands up everyone who saw this coming a mile away.

You mean your post? I saw it coming the moment Pan was elected..

quote: So much for you accepting the will of the people. Bad form Pan.....

Show me were his orders went against any poll results.

FM ahs been voted away many times before, does that mean he shouldn't have polled it at all?
Where is the limit on when to poll and when not? You all have different opinions about it, but it isn't defined anywhere how often polls may be posted, and how different polls must be?
I found the previous poll weird, since it had FM well defined with 40/20/40, while Green was unsettled.
If FM is what the people want, FM will be chosen. And this poll will finish before the next turnchat, unless GT moves it forward. So FM will still be implemented if its chosen.

Having said that, i voted for FM.

	03-02-2003 16:04									#9
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What should he have done instead?
Give order to switch to FM and wait for the turnchat to be held, and then post this poll which may make it necessary to switch to Green/Wealth the very next turnchat?

The argument that FM has been chosen democracticly once means nothing, it has been voted against many times, does that mean future poll are just rehashing those polls?
It seems to me the FM-people are nervous that FM may lose now and are willing to do anything to keep that one result where FM won.
Which is ridicilous, because if the people really want FM, they'll choose it again.

	03-02-2003 16:09									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Lemmy The argument that FM has been chosen democracticly once means nothing, it has been voted against many times, does that mean future poll are just rehashing those polls?

It's not rehashing if something has actually changed. Nothing has changed (game-wise, at least) since the last poll closed. No turnchats have gone by, etc... so the situation of FM coming up for a vote again and again after having been rejected is not a perfect analogue to the current situation.

quote: It seems to me the FM-people are nervous that FM may lose now and are willing to do anything to keep that one result where FM won.

To be frank, I am somewhat nervous that this could result in us not going FM. That's not my reason for opposing this re-poll, though.

quote: Which is ridicilous, because if the people really want FM, they'll choose it again.

I hope you're right.


edit-

quote: What should he have done instead? Give order to switch to FM and wait for the turnchat to be held, and then post this poll which may make it necessary to switch to Green/Wealth the very next turnchat?

That would have been acceptable to me, although I would have prefered he waited to post the poll until after the turnchat, so even the early voters could work off current info. As for the "switching right back" thing, well, that's somewhat undesirable but I don't think it's a massive problem considering that 5-7 years would be spent under the new system anyway.

	03-02-2003 16:10									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Lemmy What should he have done instead? Give order to switch to FM and wait for the turnchat to be held, and then post this poll which may make it necessary to switch to Green/Wealth the very next turnchat?

Exactly that.

As for my problems with him posting this......the fact that he has the audacity to post it after using my posting of FM polls during my term as an election issue against me just stinks of double standards. At least I had an excuse (The confusion over if the previous poll was invalidated because of the constitution change or not). I see no excuse here when Green/Wealth was already addressed by both the Pro and Anti Green side's in the last poll.

	03-02-2003 16:11									#12
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quote: It's not rehashing if something has actually changed. Nothing has changed (game-wise, at least) since the last poll closed. No turnchats have gone by, etc... so the situation of FM coming up for a vote again and again after having been rejected is not a perfect analogue to the current situation.

But the poll options has changed, as long as anything has changed that may effect the outcome of this poll, it has a right to exist.

	03-02-2003 16:12									#13
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quote: What should he have done instead? Give order to switch to FM and wait for the turnchat to be held, and then post this poll which may make it necessary to switch to Green/Wealth the very next turnchat?

Yes. The situation would then have changed; people might have a reason to switch sides in the debate.

And as for Pan's claim that he's merely responding to the requests of certain citizens for a poll, I have seen nothing of the sort. There was some slightly OT discussion on the subject started off by Maniac, which concluded that it wasn;t viable at this point in time.

quote: Which is ridicilous, because if the people really want FM, they'll choose it again.

As Cedayon said, i just hope you're right.

	03-02-2003 16:13									#14
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quote: Exactly that.

That's inefficient, and could cost the UNP unnecessary credits.
While there is time for it, why not do it now, and maybe save us some credits.

	03-02-2003 16:13									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Lemmy But the poll options has changed, as long as anything has changed that may effect the outcome of this poll, it has a right to exist.

The issue was discussed in the last poll, and the swing votes were pretty much decided by this (See Maniac, the person who brought up the idea in the first place.). It doesn't need to be addressed again, slightly re-worded. Especially when the "several citizen's" Pan referred to all in the end decided FM was better.

	03-02-2003 16:16									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Lemmy quote: Exactly that. That's inefficient, and could cost the UNP unnecessary credits.

Which means it's in character for the PK's.

quote: Originally posted by Lemmy While there is time for it, why not do it now, and maybe save us some credits.

Because it's already been done in the previous poll, where the Green/Wealth option was discussed, and failed to swing any votes to Green over FM.

	03-02-2003 16:16									#17
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quote: But the poll options has changed, as long as anything has changed that may effect the outcome of this poll, it has a right to exist.

As I have said, the conclusion reached when the issue was first discussed was that this option was not viable yet - so there was no demand for this poll to be posted.

And in any event, would this have given Archaic the right to post multiple polls on FM before anything was implemented by fiddling a bit with the parameters each time?

	03-02-2003 16:16									#18
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If you really feel that way, then i suggest you prepare an amendment that only allows one official SE poll between turnchats.
Because right now Pande has every right to post that poll.

	03-02-2003 16:19									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Lemmy But the poll options has changed, as long as anything has changed that may effect the outcome of this poll, it has a right to exist.

I could buy that, if Green/Wealth were a viable option... but I guess others may differ in opinion over whether it's viable, giving Pan a shred of reason to post the poll.

Ah well... but this had better be the last of this sort of antics: in the future have all options to be considered in the first Econ poll for the turnchat. If there's a tie, have a run-off (like we did). None of this "Oh, I forgot to include this option, so let's do it all over again" ... btw, he could have done that as soon as it was discovered that Green/Wealth was a choice with some backing (instead he chose to wait).

I'm going to find something more productive to do...


edit - one last quip I have to get in: If we switched to FM for this turnchat we would make WAAAAAY more credits in extra profit than we would lose by switching back in the turnchat after that
(goodness, there are like 6 new posts since I started... Ah well)

	03-02-2003 16:19									#20
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quote: And in any event, would this have given Archaic the right to post multiple polls on FM before anything was implemented by fiddling a bit with the parameters each time?

It certainly would, but Pande in this case has polled what exact settings for each SE setting should be polled, only Green was inconclusive in that poll.

	03-02-2003 16:21									#21
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The Psych settings were inconclusive, nothing else was.

	03-02-2003 16:24									#22
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I see Green/Wealth or Green/Knowledge wasn't even polled?
Then that could also be considered as inconclusive, unless i'm missing the poll...

	03-02-2003 16:25									#23
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Is anyone else finding it ironic that Pan now wants to switch out of Knowledge, and into Wealth, the very values system that his Socialist ideology should be opposing?

	03-02-2003 16:28									#24
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Archaic, are you saying he shouldn't poll for options he doesn't agree with?

	03-02-2003 16:28									#25
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...keeps dragging me back in...

Drogue already addressed the Wealth thing, I believe:

quote: Posted by Drogue in the old poll thread: Personally I favour Knowledge over wealth. I think our society should value the furtherment of science and culture over the pursuit of money. However I do am more concerned with being Green than with the values setting.

Lesser of two evils sort of deal.

	03-02-2003 16:30									#26
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Not at all. I just find it ironic, especially considering that FM w/ 20% Psych + Knowledge is closer to his socialist ideals than Green/Wealth. I know Drogue takes it from that perspective, but he and Pan don't see completly eye to eye.

	03-02-2003 16:31									#27
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Then what is your point by pointing out the irony?

	03-02-2003 16:33									#28
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This discussion has gone on for 20-some-odd posts, and you expect there to be a point? This is 'poly we're talking about here

	03-02-2003 16:35									#29
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Well, i'd expect pointless posts in the OT or Rec Commons, but not here.

	03-02-2003 16:38									#30
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Hrm, well, technically you're correct, there should be a point... but that's entirely invalidated by the fact that you're trying (ostensibly) to argue with Archaic about something he's made up his mind on... add to that the fact that he actually has a fairly good reason for his stance, and you've got a recipe for pointlessness