03-02-2003 14:51									#1
	Border treaty proposal tracking thread Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

With an 8-1 vote, I'm ready to view our latest border treaty proposal as ratified. I sent a copy of the latest amended map to the GS mailbox and the usual suspects just to make sure we're all on the same page. Here's a draft of a message to send to Jon with the map:

quote: Greetings Jon and People of Vox Controli: After extensive discussion and debate (and a bit of scrambling to adjust to Dissidentville's location), Gathering Storm has come to a strong consensus ratifying the enclosed border treaty proposal. (I had to adjust one of our city locations to make it viable with Dissidentville where it is, and another because one of our generals wanted to make absolutely certain that cultural disparities could not cost us control of an iron source.) If this would be acceptable to you, we can have the stability that comes with predefined borders so that both our nations can focus squarely on building up our economies in our nations' cores. That will make both our economies much stronger, both for research and for production, than if we waste early cities on a land grab in high-corruption areas. It will also help us lay a stronger and more stable groundwork for possible (and I like to think highly probable) future partnership in other areas. By the way, we're sorry if Hack's recent movement caused you any concern. You managed to slip your settler past Grog while he was chasing barbarians, and we thought it prudent to move Hack to a location where he can see if anything that came past with the settler starts heading south. I suppose that might be regarded as paranoia on our part, but it cost us nothing of importance. Under such circumstances, paranoia with the safety of one's people can hardly be considered a bad thing. Sincerely, The People of Gathering Storm Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

	03-02-2003 19:41									#2
	Got spare money?

Am I not getting any responses to this because everyone likes it okay, or because no one's noticing it? I need to get a feel that it's okay with the team before I send it, and I I'd like to get it sent within the next twelve hours.

	03-02-2003 19:44									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

Well, on my part I didn't respond, because I'm at work and have neither the time nor a map for a detailed analysis. But it looks ok on first view.

	03-02-2003 21:05									#4
	Get a bigger avatar today!

And I didn't respond because I wasn't awake yet. Looks fine, Nathan, go ahead and post it.

DeepO

	03-02-2003 21:24									#5
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I like it. I think it sums up everything nicely: Vox's recent landgrab, Hack's movement and our outlook in general lines, and once again stresses the importance of such an agreement in long terms.
Very nicely put Nathan.

	03-02-2003 21:57									#6
	Inflate your Upload Space

Hmm... should we really put that part about adjusting ourselves to Dissidentville? it might give them some idea on how to push for more- by putting another city. We might as well say that we changed a few position to make this a fair deal that could be acceptable by both (thus giving the impression that we had to work hard to make this plan practical for us as well).

And also- about Hack's movement: we shouldn't remind them that we see them as an untrusted neighbor that "might slip something" and certainly not talking about paranoia- since there wasn't any and those that are struck with paranoia are Vox, and this might be taken as a sort of hidden criticism. We better say that we just wanted to scout around and see the recent Voxian movements, and that we are sorry if we caused any trouble.


(How about congratulating them on their new "geniously placed city"? just kidding...)

	03-02-2003 22:03									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

well, I still think that Vox was aware of not asking us to put Dissidentville where it is now, but they didn't consider it a big deal as we did propose it (we didn't ratify it, but at least we acknowledged the possibility). I don't think they see us really adjusting to the new situation, so there is no risk that they will try to get some more cities under our nose.

Plus, I think they were surprised to see the amount of corruption in their new city, it should keep them from building even further towards us before settling their other cities

DeepO

	03-02-2003 22:09									#8
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quote: Originally posted by zeit Hmm... should we really put that part about adjusting ourselves to Dissidentville? it might give them some idea on how to push for more- by putting another city.

That is why we're in such a hurry to sign this deal - we don't want them to push it any further by setting facts.
You have a good point, though. Let them know that we have cut some of the territory that we wanted to give them, so they haven't gained anything by pulling this trick on us.

	03-02-2003 22:17									#9
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You think Vox doesn't already know that they were making a land grab? It looks to me like they knew exactly what they were doing: no treaty had been signed, so they went ahead and founded a city in a place we wouldn't have agreed to. Calling attention to our compensating for their move won't give them any ideas they don't already have, and it indirectly ties our acceptance of Dissidentville's location to the fact that we can compensate.

In regard to Hack's movement, my bit about paranoia is intended to convey the idea that we trust them enough that we think the move is probably unnecessary, but we're taking an extra precaution just in case. And the way I see it, the more up front we are about what we're doing, the less reason we have for Vox to wonder what we're really up to. If you heard the "just scouting around" line, would you buy it?

Nathan

	03-02-2003 22:21									#10
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Plus, I think they were surprised to see the amount of corruption in their new city, it should keep them from building even further towards us before settling their other cities

I seriously doubt that they've seen it yet. Working an unroaded, unmined wheat, the city only has one shield and one gold to begin with if I recall the rules correctly.

	03-02-2003 22:37									#11
	Put an end to popups!

Of course the know its a land grab, but we don't have to say we compromise because of it. If what we think is true, not acknowledging the city as a land grab that made us compromise won't hurt us or make them try harder, but if we say that we realize the "briliant" tactic which they used, we are giving them the idea that indeed it made us cut our demands, so why not try it again?

I can't see how not implying that Dissidentville made us change plans can hurt us, but if we do imply that, it might.

As for the movement- we can come with a better expression than "scouting around" but putting words like "prarnoia" and Vox "sliping something", IMO, might give the idea that we in fact don't trust them. I don't see going as far as seeing it as us expressing feelings of shame and guilt for thinking this way- its just not how Vox sees us (you certainly don't see your frightening neighbor as a being with guilt and shame feelings).

I don't really oppose this being sent as is, but some changes will make it better, IMHO.

	03-02-2003 22:54									#12
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay You think Vox doesn't already know that they were making a land grab? It looks to me like they knew exactly what they were doing: no treaty had been signed, so they went ahead and founded a city in a place we wouldn't have agreed to. Calling attention to our compensating for their move won't give them any ideas they don't already have, and it indirectly ties our acceptance of Dissidentville's location to the fact that we can compensate.

Of course not, they knew exactly what they were doing. I want us to convey the message that their move didn't achieve them any advantages.
Zeit put it better in the above post.

	03-02-2003 23:41									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

It might be in our best interest for them to make (largly useless) "land grab" cities. It takes away from their economic potential; it will be a long time before they are able to defend "land grab" cities with their economic core.

	03-02-2003 23:58									#14
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I agree. I was glad when Vox settled that site, when they had other sites to settle that are far better.

	04-02-2003 00:15									#15
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Rewrote to the second paragraph: How's this?

quote: Greetings Jon and People of Vox Controli: After extensive discussion and debate (and a bit of scrambling to adjust to Dissidentville's location), Gathering Storm has come to a strong consensus ratifying the enclosed border treaty proposal. (I had to adjust one of our city locations to make it viable with Dissidentville where it is, and another because one of our generals wanted to make absolutely certain that cultural disparities could not cost us control of an iron source.) If this would be acceptable to you, we can have the stability that comes with predefined borders so that both our nations can focus squarely on building up our economies in our nations' cores. That will make both our economies much stronger, both for research and for production, than if we waste early cities on a land grab in high-corruption areas. It will also help us lay a stronger and more stable groundwork for possible (and I like to think highly probable) future partnership in other areas. By the way, we're sorry if Hack's recent movement caused you any concern. Your settler happened to come south at a time when Grog was away from his normal post hunting barbarians, which raised a theoretical possibility that other units could have come with him. Hack's new position ensures that he can let us know in the unlikely event that units that accompanied the settler might move farther south. Sincerely, The People of Gathering Storm Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

	04-02-2003 01:07									#16
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Looks good to me, Nathan.

-Arrian

	04-02-2003 06:31									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Good. Now that we are pursuing a) the border treaty, and b) the GL, it would be appropriate for Nathan to also re-open informal discussion with Jon.

Nathan, you and he need to "feel" like you are directing our mutual civs... this will go far to allay any negative concerns that others in Vox may have.

(also, check your PMs)

	04-02-2003 11:24									#18
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Message sent with one very minor revision for clarity. I'll post it in the ambassador's office log.

	04-02-2003 22:49									#19
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Very good, i hope that this time things will move along quicker than they did previously.