03-02-2003 17:55									#1
	GM seeds - who benefits? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Article about patenting and modifying biological material, especially seeds, and a new EU approach to benefit third world farmers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2719129.stm

The point that struck me was the suggestion that seeds could be modified so that the resulting plant would not produce further seeds. one way of stopping GM plants spreading but great for the bio-tech companies turnover.

	03-02-2003 18:19									#2
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That's a great plan - until a stray mutation causes one of the plants to be able to procreate.

	03-02-2003 18:23									#3
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This is really going to confuse the lefties.

What do they want..GM crops not spreading as they tree-huggingly wanted. Or the greedy, filthy, money-loving, greedy biotech companies getting their just rewards on a sound investment.

	03-02-2003 18:33									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's This is really going to confuse the lefties. What do they want..GM crops not spreading as they tree-huggingly wanted. Or the greedy, filthy, money-loving, greedy biotech companies getting their just rewards on a sound investment.

Niether. I don't want GM crops, period.

	03-02-2003 18:36									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's This is really going to confuse the lefties. What do they want..GM crops not spreading as they tree-huggingly wanted. Or the greedy, filthy, money-loving, greedy biotech companies getting their just rewards on a sound investment.

That's a classic.

I'm a lefty and I think that GM crops are a good thing as long as they are developed and used responsibly, which I don't think that even you fascist righties would disagree with.

	03-02-2003 18:36									#6
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Wheat is a GM crop, its just been done over a long period.

	03-02-2003 18:42									#7
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We are GM.

	03-02-2003 18:51									#8
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Everything animal used by humans has been genetically modified. Its just that now we have more powerful tools to do the genetic modifications (although more powerful tools means more opportunity for mistakes).

	03-02-2003 19:42									#9
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Responsible GM
Responsible GM
Responsible GM

I am not totally against patentation. However I think that the patents should be short.

we should be careful with GM, but not be crazy about it.

	03-02-2003 19:50									#10
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Genetic modification isn't the same as breeding plants and animals, not in the sense that is currently used.

Personally, I am against GM. Preliminary studies have already shown that spliced genes spread into the environment, contradicting the assertion of biotech companies. So, how much more are they hiding from the public?

The main point, however, is not there is insufficient food in the world. There is - it is just poorly distributed.

	03-02-2003 19:55									#11
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EDIT: Nevermind, I think I get it now.

	03-02-2003 19:56									#12
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Quite so UR

I think it's just you Skanky

	03-02-2003 19:57									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns quote: Preliminary studies have already shown that spliced genes spread into the environment, contradicting the assertion of biotech companies. Is it just me, or does that sentence not make sense?

Oh, picky people.

What I was trying to say is the spliced genes do spread into the environment via a number of routes, while the biotech companies asserted that they wouldn't.

	03-02-2003 20:06									#14
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quote: Personally, I am against GM. Preliminary studies have already shown that spliced genes spread into the environment,

what do you mean by that? that the GM crop spreads into the enviroment? or that the genes spread into the enviroment?

	03-02-2003 22:21									#15
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The genes.

Nobody knows what they would do, it could get us all into deep trouble.

	03-02-2003 22:28									#16
	Re: GM seeds - who benefits? Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV The point that struck me was the suggestion that seeds could be modified so that the resulting plant would not produce further seeds. one way of stopping GM plants spreading but great for the bio-tech companies turnover.

This is called terminator technology, and is already widely used for GM seeds. The whole purpose of GM technology is to further consolidate the agro-market by agro-companies. Among the first things these companies did was to buy up all the seed houses and stop selling seeds that can reproduce, forcing farmers to buy terminator GM seeds. These costs more, and are also so productive that the price of the crop drops to the point that independent farmers are going out of business in droves.

	03-02-2003 22:32									#17
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This certainly won't help world hunger. We can start helping world hunger by using those crops that we burn instead.

I can't see how this would do anything, if used for the purposes of creating more food, except make the price value of these grains fall drastically. Can't imagine many companies would want that...

	03-02-2003 22:33									#18
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at sometime we deffinintely will need GM (although it is true that we have enough food right now, which means the anti-baby crowd is stupid)

I think that GM done right is great, I just don't always trust the corps who currently control it and the governemnt

Jon Miller

	03-02-2003 22:44									#19
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We produce more than enough food to meet our needs right now. If we stopped feeding food animals grain and let them eat grass and bugs instead, there'd be even more food avaialble (though less meat--but meat's a luxery, not a necessity).

The world human population is expected to level off at nine billion people, and then it will start falling if current birth rate trends continue.

GM FOODS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH FEEDING THE WORLD. THEY ARE ONLY ABOUT FEEDING THE WALLETS OF AGRO-BUSINESS.

There is a good use to which GM foods could be put, reducing the total amount of crop area and returning large areas back to natural habitat. That's not gonna happen, however.

orange, if you're a grain buyer, you want prices to go down. Large producers also continue to profit, but lowered prices drive their smaller competiors out of business. Their farms can then be picked up for a song. It's all about consolidation.

	03-02-2003 23:41									#20
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara We produce more than enough food to meet our needs right now. If we stopped feeding food animals grain and let them eat grass and bugs instead, there'd be even more food avaialble (though less meat--but meat's a luxery, not a necessity).

How do you reduce meat consumption to free up the grain???

The way the market does it - shrtages drive up grain prices unit meat becomes too expensive - that will work, but meanwhile high grain prices WILL mean hunger.

Only alternatives - 1. Some policy intervention - rationing, a meat tax, whatever
2. Convince everyone to reduce meat consumption voluntarily

But with growing incomes in "middle income" countries demand for meat is growing, not shrinking. Meat is not necessity, but its not a "luxury" like some items. Its a convenience, since vegetarian complete proteins tend to be more time consuming to prepare. And higher incomes tend to drive toward convenience.

	03-02-2003 23:46									#21
	Re: Re: GM seeds - who benefits? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Among the first things these companies did was to buy up all the seed houses and stop selling seeds that can reproduce, forcing farmers to buy terminator GM seeds. These costs more, and are also so productive that the price of the crop drops to the point that independent farmers are going out of business in droves.

IOs the seed business that hard to enter??? If there is demand by farmers for traditional seeds it would seem to be profitable produce them, and desirable to enter the biz, unless there are major barriers to entry.

More likely the demand is for GM seeds because they are more productive, as you point out.

Do GM seeds add to the productivity of large and corp farms more than the productivity of iindependent farmers??? (or perhaps price breaks to large purchasers?) Interesting if so. If not, they will not tend to drive independent farmers out of biz - they may go out of biz for other reasons.

	03-02-2003 23:48									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel what do you mean by that? that the GM crop spreads into the enviroment? or that the genes spread into the enviroment?

it has to be the genes, most domesticated crops cant survive in the wild.

	03-02-2003 23:56									#23
	Re: Re: Re: GM seeds - who benefits? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Is the seed business that hard to enter???

Surprisingly, yes. Why, cuz you need a source of seeds . . . which as I already pointed out, have been monopolized by companies that want farmers to use different products. It's not like the seed companies are gonna sell you the seeds that would put them out of business.

BTW, an easy way to stop grain from going towards meat would simply be to mandate that animals can't be fed grain. This, however, would cause the price of grain to collapse, since it's major market would vanish (more grain goes to feeding animals than humans). It would probably also kill the meat market, as grass feed meat isn't very flavorful.

My point isn't that we should do this, simply that we produce enough food to feed the world, even at nine billion high water mark, without increasing the amount of land being farmed or introducing new crop technologies.

	03-02-2003 23:59									#24
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About damn time. Good to see this happening.

Unfortunately, the US probably won't be on board.

	04-02-2003 00:00									#25
	Re: Re: Re: Re: GM seeds - who benefits? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara . My point isn't that we [i[should[/i] do this, simply that we produce enough food to feed the world, even at nine billion high water mark, without increasing the amount of land being farmed or introducing new crop technologies.

If we cant or wont do it (actions to reduce meat consumption, then thatfact (availability of enough food) is a purely academic. People could still go hungry. And GM would have benefits in redcuing hunger.

	04-02-2003 00:03									#26
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Surprisingly, yes. Why, cuz you need a source of seeds . . . which as I already pointed out, have been monopolized by companies that want farmers to use different products. It's not like the seed companies are gonna sell you the seeds that would put them out of business.

Theyve completely cornered the market in non-GM seeds??? None are availble???? Couldnt one import non-GM seeds from Europe??? I find the above assertion difficult to beleive, it will require some research.

	04-02-2003 00:09									#27
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: GM seeds - who benefits? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark And GM would have benefits in reducing hunger.

Hunger isn't a production problem, it's a distribution problem. GM will change it, but only by making it worse, conentrating production into fewer hands. Remember, people starve not because they can't produce food, but because they can't buy it. Free food provided by 1st world countries is often stolen by armies or armed bands of thugs either to be used by themselves, sold for currency or simply to deny it to the group who which it was intended. GM won't fix any of this.

	04-02-2003 00:14									#28
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What about GM rice in countries like China to reduce vitamin A deficiency?

	04-02-2003 00:15									#29
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Theyve completely cornered the market in non-GM seeds??? None are availble???? Couldnt one import non-GM seeds from Europe???

From what I've read, all the major seed houses have been purchased by companies like Monsanto, ADM, etc. I don't know about Europe. I suspect that importing seed from Europe would be prohibitively expensive for American farmers. I don't how much it would cost to import enough seed to start a seed company, but I suspect a lot, since you won't recoup your cost for at least a year (as you'd have to plant it and harvest it in order to make more seed for selling--otherwise you're just a middle man for European seed banks).

	04-02-2003 00:16									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie What about GM rice in countries like China to reduce vitamin A deficiency?

What about it? This one solitary example of GM technology which has been put into the public domain doesn't mitigate the effects on the agriculture market that GM technology produces elsewhere.