04-02-2003 01:51									#1
	Minimum Wage Part 2 Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Some of you might remember my thread way earlier about this case. Ok I give you more insights, the friend is actually my mother so.. and she's been making less wayyyyyyy less than she should (that is under minimum wage too, still), and that money she would have earned would be enough to pay for my university tuitions, so I'm very excited about this, as some of you know I want to study in the US, but I don't have enough sponsors. If this case would be closed succesfull, I could make it!

So.. she is making less than minimum wage, way less, and I think it's illegal? Is there anything she can do, maybe she could get the money they haven't paid her?
She made contract, but was bs.ed (working under minimum wage is illegal so..?) because she has a house and car, but she found out that they would have been included ANYWAY and her friend told her that she should still get the money, she works in the same place so she knows too.. so if there are any of you good people who know laws there, is there any ways to get that money, because this is so important to me, I can't even explain it in english. And even if not thinking about universities.. it's still lots of cash. She has green cards etc, so those are not problems.

Please leave patrionating comments like read the little print too out, this is important.

	04-02-2003 03:06									#2
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It sounds so. Problem is this seems to be Lawyer Stuff, and Justice can only be afforded by Few.
( In the Sense that Cases take a long Time)
DId you get lawyers Advice?

	04-02-2003 03:11									#3
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Miiiniiimuuum waaaage! *whipcrack*

Krhm.

Sounds like something fishy going on, certainly. Do we have lawyers here in Poly? Do we have Finnish lawyers, more to the point?

	04-02-2003 03:16									#4
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No, not yet. My mom is kind of.. she doesn't want to bother anyone and is just too nice, even when she's getting ripped off. But I'm thinking myself (too much), and all I see is 'welcome to the United States of America. We hope you enjoy your stay at our higher educational system' 'Thaaaank you!'.

Maybe she could ask for free legal advice, or at least not too expensive to know if she has a case or not?
She has told her employer that she knows she should get more, and employer even admitted it! But nothing has happened since.
So I don't know American laws about these things, all I can do is compare the situation what it would be like in here. It would be illegal contract, and that is not binding anyway, so it don't matter if you signed it. It's misleading and they know it and still did it, so I wonder if she can get the money. We're not after rewards or anything like that, just the money that would be hers if it matched even minimum wage, that's it. It's big money so I wonder how it works in there, and if she can even do that, but I think she has some options.
That's why I ask here, maybe some of you guys know some laws conserning these kind of things. Case is pretty clear and simple. If she is entitled to have that money from her employer (employer is not poor), then I will definitely make her contact lawyer and go from there. This would also mean my tuition fees, so very important to me and about my future. I'm going there in few weeks, so I'd like to know what you think. I'm going to make her to really put a pressure on them, but she is bad at that, too nice, so if she's not going to do it, I'm going to contact lawyer anyway and get some legal advice. I'm sorry my post is confusing . Hope you guys understand and can appreciate the importance of this to me.

	04-02-2003 03:18									#5
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Stefu, I know it's very illegal to employ people less than minimum wage here. They get penalty box for that. It doesn't matter if the worker signs it or not. Penalty goes for the employer. I'm not sure however if worker gets compensated here.. but in this case the employer is not some small business man, but rather bigger 'business' .

Now that I think of it, this only happens when some greedy employers hires foreigners to do work, like construction work etc.. then they go back to their countries, they don't even live here. So if the case was about worker being actually living in our country, having all the permits etc and being bs.d.. I think worked could sue the employer and get the money, filling the gap to at least minimum wage. Because the employer has to pay for cheating like that. Or then there is no justice .

Last edited by Pekka on 04-02-2003 at 03:26

	04-02-2003 03:22									#6
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Also she has a green card, all working permits and other permits, papers, IDs, the works. Plus the employer is respected one, or at least one would think so, so they just can't ignore that and not compensate? She's not illegal alien who came to flip burgers.

	04-02-2003 03:22									#7
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Yes, and that's what we need lawyers for - to find out if you can benefit!

	04-02-2003 03:29									#8
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Stefu, Well I'm not thinkign about benefits. She has worked hard for long time, and she has earned that money for sure. I think getting that minimum wage is decent thing to ask, don't you think? If there is a chance to get that, then I think we need a lawyer. Not to get any big cash checks, just what belongs to her and what she has worked for. We're not looking for bonus. Also she pays tax money to the USA, so I think she is entitled to it, but it's just my personal opinion.

	04-02-2003 05:29									#9
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Well, I'd consult with a lawyer to doublecheck the law, then once I know I'm in the right, I'd approach the employer and ask them to pay up the back wages. If they refused, I'd go to the cops, call the local media to put the spotlight on them and sue them in civil court. I'm sure in the land of ice and suomithredi.

Also, I'd alert the tax authorities because if this guy is shafting your mother, he probably shafts other people. This means he also owes additional taxes. I'm sure that the Finnish revenue service is as tough as the IRS...

	04-02-2003 05:42									#10
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Finnish IRS are bunch of savages let me tell you that! Teosto is nothing compared to them, they will hunt you down and kill you.

Yeah, this is why I asked here, maybe some of you would have known the law with this part.. that is she entitled for compensation.. and is there any way..
But positive news are the people are already behind her, she is a priest after all. That is also bad, because employer is kind of tricky. But I'm telling you that they're wrong doers right now and hypocrite, so I'm going to take her with me by force and do all the talking if that's what it takes... give them fighting words and all that.
She isn't a citizen though, so I don't know if she gets treated well, and she's too nice to hold her position against wrong doers. But! I think local media WOULD be interested in a story like that.. church stealing money and all

I'm gonna kick their asses, it's time to get violent soon, I don't care if they call themselves holy men or not, they're unholy dressed in holy mens clothes, I have 0 respect for them. Damn.. I need to do some calming down

	04-02-2003 05:55									#11
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problem is also that she's afraid that they'll think of her as a troublemaker and a greedy person. But I see justice needs to be done here. This is UNAMERICAN and if this goes unnoticed, the terrorists will win. This is about sending Pekka to University

Sorry if I sound anxious and all, but this is life and death matter to me. It's either success or nothing. I need to make it success, and we need to make these thugs pay what she has earned, it's the least they can do and we are satisfied with that, I think that's only fair. It would be fair to give her a good raise, but I doubt that will happen. Maybe they will wait for a moment to fire her after that, and if that hapens.. Johny Cochran time!
I mean she had to think how she's going to pay for taxes! She was invited there after all, my blood pressure is rising, I'm going to go hit some bag for a while

yep.. it's either this happening, me getting into the place I belong, or it's me getting my butt to french foreign legion, and those of you who know me a bit, knows I'm not kidding at all

Last edited by Pekka on 04-02-2003 at 06:01

	04-02-2003 07:27									#12
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Laws differ from state to state. IIRC, in California, the employer has to pay for the employee's attorney if the employee is successful in a failure to pay wages claim. As others have said, check with a lawyer.

Also, most states have a department of labor, or a labor commissioners or something like that. Usually, they'll look into cases like this for free. Check the front of your phone book under state government.

	04-02-2003 07:45									#13
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Zkribbler, thanks. I will do that. No one seems to know if in case like this, if it's clear and all, compensation is in order or not.. well, I'll guess they will know better, just that it's still few weeks until I go, so I could have prepared my case better if I knew anything before that.

	04-02-2003 07:56									#14
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Pekka:

Did you say your mom worked for the church? I would think she could talk to some of the other elders about her complaint.

	04-02-2003 08:05									#15
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what elders? she works in the church. I don't think there are other elders, she's the only one in there. Though, she knows lots of others who had her position in that place, and now she has gotten information that they all got screwed the same way. But they just left and didn't raise their voice, but submitted like dogs. So this thing is long over due, I wonder where that extra money goes?
How they report their tax things etc..

	04-02-2003 08:30									#16
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If she is the only elder, who pays for her salary?

	04-02-2003 08:39									#17
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Well the .. I don't know what they're called.. elders?
But they're not working in there, they have their own offices or so. She has contacted them, and they're now 'thinking of raising her salary'. But it's been ages and nothing has happened, and what's there to think about, raising it to at least minimum level. So, I'm thinking what happens to that money. Someone is using it. They're stealing from her, that's my opinion. It's not away from them if they just give it to her, they have their own salaries..

So, it seems to be, they're not co-operating at all. Besides it's disgusting, everyone knows it, even the people in church knows it. They give moral support to her, good people. That does not however pay my tuition fees

	04-02-2003 08:45									#18
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Elder is the general term for a person in a church heirarchy. My church has pastors who are responsible for a particular section of the church, some are administrative and handle the day-to-day things.

Is there an administrative priest in this church who handles these things?

Does the church receive funding from the tithes, or from the government? I know Finland has mostly Lutheran churches, which is the state church, something we don't have here in Canada.

	04-02-2003 08:48									#19
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Damn, I don't know . I now know what elder means, I think they have them. You know come to think of it, I think it was one of these elders that tipped her she was receiving way less.. Kind of 'don't tell anyone I told you this' I think. Yeah, it's lutheran church.

	04-02-2003 08:48									#20
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And actually her working title is pastor.

	04-02-2003 09:11									#21
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Not good. Churches are supposed to have the internal structures to deal with these kinds of things. The problem is that Christians are taught not to bring lawsuits against other believers. That's what your mom is probably running against, and why she 'submits.'

All I can think of is to shame the church into paying her properly, revealing to the congregation what is going on, especially if she has their support. They can put lots of pressure on the church, if some of the pastors are not doing their job properly without bringing in outside help.

This means diddly-squat if the government is the one writing the cheques. Are there no church-going Finns in Apolyton to answer my question?

	04-02-2003 09:21									#22
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I know it's bad.. I'm not super religious, but it's also cultural thing. We don't sue people, contact lawyers etc.. we deal things like this by yelling to the other one and making threats . That whole thing about courts and all that is not our field.. so that contributes too. But in this case the other side is not willing to deal with the situation, just using tactics to make her tired of the situation. However I, selfcentered guy who is thinking about the money, will make her do something about it.
The people in congregation knows this, and they have said they're on her side. But what can you do.. little people against giants.. I know nothing is going to happen, they just avoid her long enough, if we don't really do something about this. If we don't do something about this, my mom will get screwed even more adn I won't watch that happening. After she quits, being too tired of all the bs, they'll just get another one, who will again get disappointed because they screw them over too, just like the past ones.. it needs to stop now.

Also she says she won't do her job badly, because the people need her, like she's visiting all these elder people who are about to die soon a lot and so..

edit: Ok I'll go to sleep now, it's very late, or should I say early. Please, I really want to hear your advices on this one if you have anything more, how this could be turned around. As Obiwan18 has posted, it's a tricky situation, but we're the good guys on this one I think. And we're talking about thousands and thousands of dollars here.

Last edited by Pekka on 04-02-2003 at 09:36

	04-02-2003 09:37									#23
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If the church is funded off tithes, and the tithes dry up, that's a pretty big incentive to negotiate.

Your mom should stand up for herself, but if nothing changes I think she should leave. It would be great to change everything around so that this church stops using people, but sometimes that might not be possible.

However Pekka- don't get so fixated on 'your' money. You didn't earn it, though I think you are right to insist that something be done.

	04-02-2003 09:42									#24
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Yeah, I'm going to go to sleep now. I think she shouldn't leave. This has been going on for years so.. no giving up.. I think. It's not my money, I know that, I haven't earned single penny of it, but it would be my ticket to Uni, and my only chance too, so I'm pretty serious about it. I think it's really worth fighting for. If we fail, then I don't get to go, simple. Also, even if I didn't get to go, it still would be wrong she got treated like this, so it's still wrong, money or no money. And I bet these people don't have all the power in the world, they can't just sit there and think 'well.. it's a good thing laws don't bind us'. It don't matter who does this, pope, the president, no one should get away with this. Ok now I'm of to bed, thanks for your posts obiwan18.

	05-02-2003 23:05									#25
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I just talked to my mom.. I don't think this is going to be won. Her salary is not being paid by goverment, they don't get fundings from the gov.. so.. I don't know. She get's exactly 50% too little.. and to realize she has lots of experience and all.. it's much more than 50%.
But, only chance is if we figure out if the elders or whoever gets the money and handles it, are getting correct amount of it. If it is, then they're using it wrong, and stealing the money. If not.. then it's not going to be a fight, but a bitter defeat. So I don't know.. I thought it was too good to be true anyway, getting a break and all that.

	06-02-2003 03:25									#26
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Well good luck Pekka.

Nothing worse for a Church than to mistreat those who work for them.

Keep your chins up!

	06-02-2003 04:00									#27
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Yeah.. sucks big time. But it's not going to hold me down, I'm still going to make it.. if not for nothing else, then just to show these guys. Nothing is free, and I'm going to be the winner after this, and show them thieves how to move up in the world in honest ways. F'em.