04-02-2003 01:58									#1
	Great Lighthouse - a possible deal with RPers Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Chatting with Nimitz, redstar1, and ZargonX earlier today, an interesting opportunity emerged. I think it needs to be discussed here before making any official offers.

RPers currently consider building the Great Lighthouse. They will probably not go for it if we choose to build it. Now, the question is: shall we agree to let them build it? The informal result we came to in the chat was: yes.

Here is a couple of reasons:

1) We may very well be able to get to other civs without it, see the latest merged minimap:



GoW part of the world seems to be within one risky/lucky galley hop. The western route might also be quite promising (don't forget there must be ND and LI to the east of GoW).

2) According to what Nimitz knows from RPers, GoW, ND, and LI are on the verge of a conflict - a great war seems to be very close to its outbreak (LI have a unit inside ND's cultural borders, just one tile across from ND's capital), which should slow their tech progress notably due to the lack of tech-trade. Nimitz also says he believes we are currently pretty much on par with others (thanks to the generous support of our lesser tribes).

3) If RPers go for the Great Lighthouse, they will most probably be unable to go for another wonder. That would leave Great Library easier to get for us (keep in mind that GoW/ND/LI are probably out of the wonder race, as they prepare to fight).

4) We might fake a wonder building "contest" with RPers, actually using it to disguise our true goal - the Great Library (or Pyramids). If we manage to build the Great Library, we would not have to fear lagging behind tech-wise, as any lag would be quickly fixed once we contact others.

5) In exchange for the Great Lighthouse, we might ask something pretty important, like that they will not try to settle on our landmass, should they run into it (and they are very close to our SE, which is and for the foreseeable future will remain unsettled). The trick would be RPers do not know how large our landmass is. When they find out, it will be too late for them. Another option would be to ask the contact to ND or some other team once RPers get into contact with us (that would most probably make them start exploring in a different direction, leaving us more time to REX silently).

Well, that's just a couple of thoughts. I hope others will contribute to the discussion, too. I told Nimitz to tell RPers we would get back to them within two or three days.

	04-02-2003 08:47									#2
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I think it's a no risk deal.

I agree we don't need the Lighthouse. The Great Library is what we need. Pyramid would help us REX quickly; so it's a good one too. Of course we would build a Palace as a place holder.
From what I have gathered, there is a significant conflict (war) brewing among 3-4 civs (not sure about which ones, but I'm sure your names are correct).
I would do anything to keep others away from Legoland.

I would definitely be for this deal.

	04-02-2003 11:38									#3
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It seems a good deal. I agree going for the Great Library and letting the Lighthouse for the RP. We have enough landmass to settle, we don't need to find islands; we need only contact with others, which we can get either with our galleys or letting the RP come to us and sell us the contacts with others (this could be part of the deal, too).
If we could make them accept not to settle on our landmass, that would be just wonderful.

	04-02-2003 12:17									#4
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Yes, I definately think the no settlement on our landmass is a wonderful stipulation to get, if we can manage it. If the situation on their continent destabilizes even more, I doubt they'll have time to come looking for our lands anyway.

	04-02-2003 13:14									#5
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Well, it seems like we all agree on that the deal might be good, if the price is right. Nimitz, here is your authorization (wait for redstar1 to approve it, please):

1) Wait a day or two, so that we do not seem to be too eager to make the deal.
2) Tell RPers we consider the Lighthouse very important to any island-based, isolated civ, because of the need to contact other civs across oceans. You might mention our worries about lagging behind tech-wise.
3) Tell them we would be willing to make an arrangement for the Great Lighthouse though, if they accomodate us on the contacts and agree not to compete for "our" isolated landmass.
4) The deal would be: one free contact of their choice after they themselves get into contact with us (no obligation to contact us ASAP though) and no attempts to settle our landmass. Make it look like that we primarily want the contact, the no settlement agreement being only a side-extra, "mentioned just for sure". If they bargain, tell them you need to consult and get back to them only later, offering something extra from our side for the contact (like a tech or our contact, should we have any at that time) - we actually want the no settlement part, the rest is just a distraction. I believe it would be okay to admit we will consider giving the Great Library a try, if RPers ask (hence the free contact we are asking for - together with the contact to RPers, it would make our Great Library functional).
5) Offer them a fake "wonder contest". We would pretend we are trying to get to the Great Lighthouse, too, switching to something else just before its completion.
6) Discuss prebuilds.

Everybody, comment on this, please, I might have forgotten something...

	04-02-2003 13:33									#6
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I can't add anything. Good plan, Radek

One thing though: we could tell them that beside that free contact, we are willing to buy/exchange all of their contacts with our contacts (should we have any), money, tech, or whatever they will request (based on a fair deal, obviously)

	04-02-2003 14:16									#7
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Sounds like a very good plan. It will look to the RP team that we are becoming reliant on them for our contact with the other teams. This shouldperhaps make them more amenable to trade in the future....

	04-02-2003 14:42									#8
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All sounds good.

Let's not mention them contact us first. As mentioned earlier, we need to keep our island a secret as long as possible. I would much rather be the contacter near their landmass.

	04-02-2003 17:59									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius One thing though: we could tell them that beside that free contact, we are willing to buy/exchange all of their contacts with our contacts (should we have any), money, tech, or whatever they will request (based on a fair deal, obviously)

Yes, this would not hurt. Nimitz, you might try to indirectly suggest we are heavily dependent on the information coming from them (which is true, btw). And that in order to keep our relations that good and the information coming, we are even willing to make a deal on the Lighthouse.

quote: Originally posted by redstar1 Sounds like a very good plan. It will look to the RP team that we are becoming reliant on them for our contact with the other teams. This should perhaps make them more amenable to trade in the future....

Yes, exactly. Perhaps "unintentionally" dropping a word indicating we currently do not have a good coastal site we could devote to building the Great Lighthouse. That would not be a lie , as we intend to build the Great Library in Jackson and we have no other good coastal site we could use to build the Lighthouse, too.

quote: Originally posted by lmtoops Let's not mention them contact us first. As mentioned earlier, we need to keep our island a secret as long as possible. I would much rather be the contacter near their landmass.

This is perhaps a good idea. Do not mention any demands or "non-demands" regarding when we are expecting them to meet us. If they ask, tell them you have no instructions regarding this, so it is probably up to them to choose where they sail first.

The primary goal is to make them believe that we are actually not in a position to build the Great Lighthouse ourselves, thus trying to get as much out of not building it as possible. I believe that nothing I and others have proposed actually involved any lie - it is just cleverly formulated truth that should lead them to misinterpret our situation and true intentions, which are to make sure RPers will not try settling our S/SE.

Frankly, RPers would be the only team I would hesitate to attack if plopping a city in our landmass. They have been extremely friendly so far, providing invaluable information. I would feel pretty uneasy going hostile towards them, if the only reason was our own land grab and empire integrity.

	04-02-2003 18:21									#10
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If we say to the RP team that we can't build the Lighthouse, it wouldn't seem anymore such a great deal for them. Let's just say that we were pondering to building the LH, but we would let them build it because we want the GL too + the deal with them + what Vondrack said earlier.

	04-02-2003 18:54									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius If we say to the RP team that we can't build the Lighthouse, it wouldn't seem anymore such a great deal for them. Let's just say that we were pondering to building the LH, but we would let them build it because we want the GL too + the deal with them + what Vondrack said earlier.

Well, there is a slight problem with this reasoning. RPers need to believe they know why we are willing to make the deal, because from what they know about us (isolated, alone on an island), The Great Lighthouse should be TOP priority for us. I do not think they would believe we'd let them build it just because we wanted to be nice to them. We do not want them to find out we actually have no or very little interest in that wonder, as that would tell them too much... they might put clues together and realize we probably have a large unsettled landmass at our disposal and other ways of getting to other civs. Even if they couldn't use this information to any visible effect right now, I would rather have them believe something else.

I didn't mean to plainly tell them we have no city able to build the wonder. I meant to "accidentaly" leak out a word thout would indirectly suggest we are not sure we have a coastal city shield-strong enough to build the Lighthouse.

That way, RPers might gather that we are not sure we could make it before others and therefore consider a deal with them instead, perhaps hoping to go for the Great Library later (I would not expressly talk about the Great Library, unless they ask - and even then, I would only admit we will naturally consider going for it, as that would be our only way to keep in touch tech-wise).

Anyway, all this is just to give Nimitz various ideas and - above all - a precise idea of what we want to achieve... I am sure he will do it just great, as always.

	04-02-2003 21:07									#12
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Tell me when your read for me to do this, as I can do it any time.

	05-02-2003 09:29									#13
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Seems like a good plan to me. I am really impressed by it. The Great Lighthouse in my opion is ok, but your rescourse would be better spent like you said on other wonders.

	05-02-2003 10:29									#14
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I agree with all except for hinting we don't have a good city to build the Great Lighthouse. As far as maintaining good relations goes, this is a half-truth that they will realize later, and relations may sour when they do. Also, on the more Machiavellian side of diplomacy, why should they make the deal if they don't think we have a shot at the Great Lighthose?

	05-02-2003 11:21									#15
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Kloreep, exactly my idea from my previous post. See Vondrack's response.

Instead of saying that we don't have a good city, maybe we should suggest that we had a great debate on whether to build the LH or the GL and their wonder-trade idea helped us to decide to go for the GL. Or at least this is what I'd say.
The best way is perhaps to tell them no direct/exact information that we decided this or that or want this or that, but lots of partial info: we had a debate and we don't know for sure which wonder to build (this was even true until a point), we have other priorities right now for our wonder city (true again), plus the deal is good, etc (see previous posts).

	08-02-2003 00:59									#16
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Ok I got some unofficial stuff from RP. They wont most likely build the GLh but I wouldn't build it as they may still. They also said they have no plans to settle on our lands I tried to get that firmed down but couldn't as hes at work so that the best I can do till he gets back, also they agreed unoffcially to trade conact to another civ for MM or our WM.

	08-02-2003 01:09									#17
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What is MM ? Map Making? I thought they have it. I suppose WM is world map?

Btw, for some turns we are going to build the Palace anyway, so we have time to decide what to do about the GLH, what wonder to build in the end.

	08-02-2003 01:38									#18
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Yes MM is map making and no they don't got it.

	08-02-2003 02:29									#19
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Then how in the name of God did they want to build the GLH?

Anyway, the deal is probably off, as they will most likely research military techs in the near future. Or if we could meet without the GLH, with a lucky galley hop, we could give them MM and offer the GLH in exchange for something. But this a too distant story.

	08-02-2003 05:49									#20
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I'd just like to say I'm against trading our WM to ANYONE, even RP. It's information we'll be able to pretect if we claim the entire continent, and having no knowledge of our territory would be a big impediment to anyone trying to invade us - and now that we seem to be the top dog, I think it's likely at least one team will want to try eventually.

	08-02-2003 10:52									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep I'd just like to say I'm against trading our WM to ANYONE, even RP. It's information we'll be able to pretect if we claim the entire continent, and having no knowledge of our territory would be a big impediment to anyone trying to invade us - and now that we seem to be the top dog, I think it's likely at least one team will want to try eventually.

I agree. We shall make it a rule carved in stone that we never trade our maps (not even territory or mini maps). As Kloreep says - without any geographical information, others will have hard times planning any invasions onto our landmass.

	10-02-2003 20:30									#22
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I agree as well. It turns out our continent is bigger than expected, and we'll need much, much time to settle it entirely / road it entirely.
We should trade geographic knowledge only when we have a complete grip on our landmass, to avoid early invasions, or colonisation.

	10-02-2003 20:33									#23
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Even then, I think we should stall as long as possible on trading our WM with anyone. We certainly do not need other Civ's territory or world maps so we can play it pretty cool when discussing it. Of course, once we are well set up and ready to defend ourselves we might find it strategically advantageous to trade it for tech, or goods.

	11-02-2003 17:25									#24
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Yesterday, during a chat with Arnelos, we were informed that RPers completely ruled out the possibility of building the GLh, considering it a waste of shields. I am thus closing this thread as it is no longer relevant.