04-02-2003 05:43									#1
	War Party: Debate attack Austrians plan Inflate your Upload Space

I think the war with Austrians is necessary for our expansion!

Here is my plan for a preparation to war.

1) Join all of our units in field together. Creating a size 3 Army (1 Archer and 2 Warriors)

2) Kill the Barbs with our newly created army in case the barb unit keep chasing us.

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	04-02-2003 05:48									#2
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By the time phase one is finished at least three turns have passed. And maybe 4 in case of an attack against the barb unit!

But after that the plan continues:

3) Send the new army to the second city where the Warrior will be waiting them to join the army. And the newly created hoplite (4 turns to finish from now) will be gurarding the city from now on!

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	04-02-2003 05:52									#3
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This will take us another 2 turns to sum with the orders of phse 2.

4) Now the four unit army will be moving towards the Pedrunn City. Where by they time they reach there the Settler will be finished! And will become part of the army to scort it safely!

5) The city of Pedrunn has 1 hoplite and 2 archers. One of these archers will join the army! And the City of Pedrunn will still be well protected by a hoplite and a settler.

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	04-02-2003 06:00									#4
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And finally! And still good to be dicussed:

6) We send the size 6 army (1 Settler + 3 Warrior + 2 Archers) to the site of the potato good.

7) The Settler shall settle the city in this site in which give us a necessary out post where we can send our troops to attack the nearest city of the Austrians. Which could be Lins (Near to the potato site) or Graz (Near to our capital).
The attack doesnt have to be imedatly after the building of the city! The new city could be the place to make a bigger army. Since an army of 4 units (1 warriors has to be left to protect the new city) may not be enough to conquer a Austran city.

Attachment: sem título-3cópia.jpg
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	04-02-2003 06:02									#5
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So what you guys think?

Of couse this plan will take us at least 15 turns to be completed. And an attack to the Austrians may take even longer since we may have to gather more units to the attacking army. But it is long term investment!!!

So, Any comments?

	04-02-2003 06:15									#6
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I think there is some chance are that the Austrians might plant a city in this area... it is fertile... before we get there.

What do we do if its 'used up' before we get there?

If the other site, near the coal, is deemed to be the most advantageous, how would you change the plan to incorporate that?

I strongly believe that any of the established cities, the ones viewed in the earlier map exchange, will be well reinforced at this point. We should concentrate on a newer city with a larger force than 4... perhaps plan on a suicide mission by one warrior to test the defences of a city we find...

MrBaggins

	04-02-2003 06:38									#7
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins I think there is some chance are that the Austrians might plant a city in this area... it is fertile... before we get there. What do we do if its 'used up' before we get there?

Until the time the army reachs the city of Pedrunn the Plan can still be reversed. Since thats when the settler building is finished and the armies are doomed to go to in Pedrunn, the center of the empire anyway! But we have 5 turns after this point to reach the potato site from Pedrunn City. After this point things will get complicated. We will have to choose:
1) either we return the settler to Pedrunn and from that point to the coal site (or other site)
2) we will have to destroy their new city and create our city over it as planned, which will be easy (newly created cities have no defense or very low one) and will give us their PW and Gold. Although it will antecipate the declaration of war.

quote: If the other site, near the coal, is deemed to be the most advantageous, how would you change the plan to incorporate that?

The whole point is to have a military post where we can gather the units together to make a army big enough to kill a Austrian City. If most people choose the Coal Site the plan will have to be re-written! Specially after stage 5 of the plan!

quote: I strongly believe that any of the established cities, the ones viewed in the earlier map exchange, will be well reinforced at this point. We should concentrate on a newer city with a larger force than 4... perhaps plan on a suicide mission by one warrior to test the defences of a city we find...

I also believe a size four may not be enough but it isnt too few. We can make some big damage with it. As for a suicidal mission. I believe all Lemurs lifes are too valuable to be lost in such a mission!

	04-02-2003 06:48									#8
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The miliary post is an 'OK' idea.. but I'd like to see this settler become a productive city... somewhere that can ultimately be pumping out units...

We can stage at Pedrunn... instead... and lead a charge along the river from there... rather than slogging the 4 turns from Pedrunn to the new site to regroup.

As to an exploritory attack... I'd rather lose 1 unit than 4. Its that simple.

As to the last, we could always enforce a draft and put some APP citizens into military service, specifically for "the 'honor' of being the first Lemurians to attack a city" (or thats our story and we're sticking to it.)

At least they'd be useful for something, then

MrBaggins

	04-02-2003 06:55									#9
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins The miliary post is an 'OK' idea.. but I'd like to see this settler become a productive city... somewhere that can ultimately be pumping out units...

Lets see the numbers. You msut rmember that although the Production will be boosted. The Growth will be highly decreased by four moutain tiles giving 0 food. But thats an discussion to another thread

quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins We can stage at Pedrunn... instead... and lead a charge along the river from there... rather than slogging the 4 turns from Pedrunn to the new site to regroup.

As i said, the plan will need to be re-written from stage 5. And that I do agree with you on this as a plan B. But i am afraid Graz is the capital of the Austrian empire and it may be to well protected.
Lets see what other peple say about it.

quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins As to the last, we could always enforce a draft and put some APP citizens into military service, specifically for "the 'honor' of being the first Lemurians to attack a city" (or thats our story and we're sticking to it.) At least they'd be useful for something, then

*Please, dont make me loose some APPs votes repling this comment *

	04-02-2003 06:59									#10
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Well.. I used a smiley... you used a smiley...

They know we love them, really, and are only joking... honest!!!

	04-02-2003 07:15									#11
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins Well.. I used a smiley... you used a smiley... They know we love them, really, and are only joking... honest!!!

I just checked! Wien is the capital of the Austrian empire and not Graz. So this does makes Graz a safer place to conquer. Still As part of the plan after conquer Linz would be divide our army among Linz and our third city. And create new armies in Pedrunn and Katorfell to attack Graz and Insburg. But i am start to consider you plan. It does look good! Specially if the Coal site looks a better place to setle our third city. Which i dont belive it is because of the Growth. Again Lets watch the numbers

	04-02-2003 07:18									#12
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over how many turns do you want to do the comparison? 20?

you only really see culmulative differences given that kind of a time period.

MrBaggins

	04-02-2003 17:47									#13
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It's a shame the austrians aren't visibly expanding like the germans are, then we would know where their most weakly defended cities are.
Still i think i'm a big minority in my preference in attacking germany(those new cities), but i recognise we need to attack either one of the two bigger civs that are close to us, and austria does have some nice looking sites that would be good cities to own and decent looking territory to settle ourselves.
For the current plan i would say it would be an advantage if austria settled near that potato, that would be the city to attack first. If this isn't an option by the time our army has assembled then Graz would be a good target due to the river we could move down.
I agree with MrBaggins that the production from a coal sited city might be prefreble to another potato(growth) city, it will in the short term allow us to produce the troops we are going to need, better than a growth orientated city. In the long term it won't matter as we can help it grow anyway.
I think once this production based city is set up it should start churning out units of war. I also agree with MrBaggins that a scout attack on Graz would be worth the sacrifice if it means saving our entire army. If we are not attacking recently founded cities then i think this should be used to gauge the defences before commiting our large(hah!) army.
To that end I volunteer to lead that scout attack on our first target, i wouldn't want to send our more peaceful citizens on such a bloodthirsty mission .

In the APP they are discusing which thing we should research next. We could do that here abit i guess(but i don't know the choices right now )

One other thing that hasn't been discused is the duration of the conflict. I feel we need to set an overall mission goal. I think once we decide on our enemy we should look to do them enough damage so they won't become a threat in the future, basicaly take more than one or two cities. But all this will need to be polled once and if war is chosen as the way forward.

	06-02-2003 04:25									#14
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The more and more I think about this, the worse an idea I think it is, that is trying to out develop vs the AI, without the ability to expand citywise... the best we are going to do is 2 extra cities... for all intents and purposes, and then the AI is going to finish garrisonning, and start sending offensive stacks...

The absolutely essential thing is that we send what we have... now... to attack... 2 warriors/1 hoplite or visa versa and 2 archers... or one less warrior, if we don't think we can... but a 5 stack should be enough to go after Innsbruck if we go for it now... they'll have 1 or 2 units, due to the elapsed time the city has been around, and should have been predigeously growing due to all the farms the AI should have been putting down, on the river grassland... The older cities will be better garrisoned... and the very new cities will not be as advantageous. Taking a city *NOW* means them -1, us +1... and we are taking the battle to them. We get a decent advantage, and the possibility of locating a town between Innsbruck and Pedrunn... and think about testing their defenses further.

Sitting back and thinking about a future arms race will just have our 12 stack outnumbered 4 to 1... and if we keep waiting, 6 to 1.

We don't have the room to settle. The hills to the south are not a solution: the distance penalties will suck. The desert to the north isn't a solution either..

I see that this is a risk, but I see more of a risk in waiting... This might mean that we are left with 1 guy in each city for a turn here and there... but we honestly don't have time to be indecisive.

Luckily with a WP president and an WP MoD, I think that we are ultimately setting the course of action. So lets make up our mind here... and you know my view... Lets go NOW!

MrBaggins

	06-02-2003 05:10									#15
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1 or 2 cities for the initial attack will most likely be all we could sustain. Still I don't trust germany at all, and think that we need to take more in the medium term if we are to avoid a nasty war on two fronts. So we would need to cripple Austria so badly that they won't be able to launch a counter-attack after the first say two waves of our attack.
Whichever cities we take will have to churn out more units to keep the momentum going.
From the screenshots Pedrunn posted, Granz is the one to the northwest of Pedrunn(town) and is Innsbruck the one to the west in the hills/forest? Does anyone know how long either have been in existance(you cant see their size in the screenshots)?
Once coal city has been founded(hopefuly) and warriors/hoplites/archers are rushing out its city gates, we should really go for austria. Useing the cheapest and quickest unit to produce as a suicide attack on each city to gauge it's defense might be wise - although it would be nice to keep them as part of a regular army to make up the numbers? Hmmmm......it would be disaster if we attacked full-on and lost the whole stack because of no int/recon report.
What worries me is that once this course of action is taken it shouldn't be slowed until we have completed our objectives. I hope the APP won't try stalling tactics like voting for settlers/city improvements when we will need to be producing units of war
But if we do go to war i agree it needs to be ASAP and not in 30-40 turns, by then our neighbours cities will be well defended and our chance will be gone and we will be forced to settle in the south mountains!

	06-02-2003 05:22									#16
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I absolutely agree... we (the War Party) needs to be a united front on this subject. War now... but how?

As to to where... you can see the city sizes if you load the save...

I'll attach the visible cities

Its gonna be pretty obvious that Innsbruck is the right target; its only just been created

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	06-02-2003 05:23									#17
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now linz

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	06-02-2003 05:24									#18
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now wein

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	06-02-2003 05:44									#19
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Just don't forget to take into account that the Austrian map is about 20 turns old, so those cities must have sizes 3-4 bigger than this.

	06-02-2003 05:47									#20
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He who dares wins

I guess Innsbruck(when it is size2) and then Graz for the first phase.
After that see how things are going with germany and build for the next push.

Last edited by child of Thor on 06-02-2003 at 05:53

	06-02-2003 05:55									#21
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true... but... i was going to raise that proviso...but The AI still garrisons its core cities before the outlying cities, plus since the city was developed late, there would be a need to 'catch up', the AI would have built a growth improvement (Granary at this stage, unless they are VERY advanced) *AND* tile improvements.

The Granary would have taken about this long to be done... It'll be biggish, but thinly defended.

	06-02-2003 15:01									#22
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Uhm, while you were planning to make Austrian mothers cry, you forgot that you could "lead" the barbarians to a German city. Less risk.

	06-02-2003 15:05									#23
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And don’t put any APP members on the front line. Making canon fodder of your fellow citizens is just bad form . Besides, us pinko-liberals don’t make good soldiers.

	06-02-2003 17:34									#24
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Theres a technical reason why you (APP members) go first. You get there faster on you free ass'

* MrBaggins chuckles

	06-02-2003 20:44									#25
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You scared of standing in front Mr. B? All talk, no action heh?

	06-02-2003 20:47									#26
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That last post was supposed to have a little Wouldn’t want you bloodthirsty-meatheads clamouring for my blood.

Vote APP!

	06-02-2003 22:24									#27
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Heck, we'll make the APP worth something yet. We can draft all of the members and send them to the front. If we take the city then fine and if all the APP get killed then we still win.

	06-02-2003 22:53									#28
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Tsk tsk......we need UNITY guys ,between all partys; anything else and we are doomed - war will happen,maybe very soon so lets get ready for it. Besides i've already voluntered myself as vangard to any attack, so there will be no need of a press-gang

	07-02-2003 03:05									#29
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my last step... as opposed to going south

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	07-02-2003 05:27									#30
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looks good. I don't think we will need to test the defences for that city with our 5+ units will we?
What city next? And should we sacrifice a unit to get a recce before commiting the main stack?

Edit....

Well as i sit here listening to Bob Marley and having had a think about things this is how it is looking.

We will most likely(pending the poll) attack Innsbruck with 1 warrior,1 Hoplite and 3 archers. It should be very lightly defended and we should suffer no casulties.
But from the military streangth graph that Jbytheway posted, we can see that the Austrians are 8th strongest out of 11(i think).We are last by a longway, but at this early stage that could just mean they have a few more units than us, and as we start to build a few more units from the soon to be settled coal(Mapfi)city we should see our bar start to rise quickly. If not, then we could be in trouble

Germany far from being the strongest militarily are 5th on the graph, and only comparitively stronger than Austria. We have a peace-treaty and a non-trespassing agreement with them now, so that is a great result

Once(if) Innsbruck has been taken IMHO we should keep all the units in the city just in case Austria tries to take it back.
Pedrunn(city) can build some units to build up it's defences and another settler if there is a good spot for it to go to?

After this and once a bigger stack can be put together which city should we go for? I think Granz looks good as it is close to Innsbruck and would fit in nicely with the overall shape of our emerging territory and because of the rivers would be quick to re-enforce if needed? I think it might also be a good idea to sacrifice a unit to get an idea of any other cities defences before we commit our stack? Any other cities that we should think about taking?
I'm in favour of taking as many as it takes to take austria out the game. So a long campaign of troop build-up, take 1-2 cities, defend, resuply and city improvement. Thoughts on all this?

Last edited by child of Thor on 07-02-2003 at 18:08