04-02-2003 23:21									#1
	What to do with the Great Library Full PM-box? Change here!

This thread is meant to discuss what to do with the GL after it is built. So brainstorm!

	04-02-2003 23:22									#2
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Here is my vision: once the great library is built, we post an auction thread on the PTW forum. We auction a tech trade agreement similar to the one we're contemplating on offering Vox (exclusivity, patenting, X% price until the GL is made obsolete) starting from 25%. The highest bidder will get the trade agreement.
Biddings must be made by team leaders and are considered official. The witnesses to the signing of the deal are everyone, so if the winning civ violates the deal , e.g. by selling one of the techs that we sold them, the civ that they offer to sell the tech to will know that they are cheats and liars.
What do you think?

	04-02-2003 23:40									#3
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Well, let's assume we have the GL. That means, we won't do any research. Neither does Vox. Neither does that extra civ you want to sign an agreement with. Remains 4 civs. Legoland is probably also out of question, they seem to be lost somewhere. Remains 3. Two of them need to have a tech, so we can get it through the GL, and with us two parasites. Chances are high, that these 3 civs sign an anti GL treaty, meaning they research different branches, but don't trade for quite a while, setting us back severely.

I think Vox as parasite is enough. No extra deal.

	05-02-2003 00:23									#4
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You're right, there's a chance that this could backfire.
However, I'm unsure as to what the chances are that such an alliance would ever form. Firstly, Legoland must not be found - an alliance of this nature requires three or less partners, each one pursuing one of the three branches of the tech tree. Then, the three researching civs must all come to an agreement (if the three are able to come to a fragile agreement that involves so much trust). A lot of questions will arise - who will get the branch that ends with republic, who will get monarchy and who will have to stay in despotism (surely, noone would volunteer to that)? Who will be researching the "peace branch" in the medieval age, while the others invent pikemen, musketmen and knights?
Even if such an alliance forms up, it will have to end eventually - most likely sooner than intended by those civs. And when it ends, we get their techs.
Still, I agree, this deserves more discussion.

	05-02-2003 00:47									#5
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Sir Ralph is right.

Say I'm a strong civ, and I have a neighboring strong civ, and somebody else has the GL. We can simply agree that I will research Monotheism -> Theology -> Education, while they research Engineering -> Feudalism -> Invention. Then, I give them Education, wait a turn, and then complete the trade (thus screwing the GL civ).

The GL will work best for us, btw, if we can somehow exploit differences between the mainland civs. If they cooperate as closely as we are trying to with Vox, the GL isn't going to be that great for us.

-Arrian

	05-02-2003 01:19									#6
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That's right, i think that some sort of agreement with Vox regarding the GL is a great way to vassalize Vox, or in a more politicaly correct form- have them the "junior partners", as Nathan coined it. i think that most of us agree that this would prove more beneficial to us than alienating Vox then striking as soon as we're ready.

Also, although off topic- i think a more direct form of speaking when dealing with Vox is needed, as they seem to take any hints or suggestion they are convenient with as agreed and ratified (see Jon's note in the log thread). Even if he is bluffing, it is better IMHO not to give them any ideas they shouldn't get.

When i think of it now- Vox might also think we have formed an alliance- in their eyes any "seed that is planted"- like the talks of military alliance, is ready to be sown by them when they feel like it (like Dissidentville and Jon's excuse), so we better stop planting those seeds, so Vox won't start acting and carrying things out without us knowing about it and (at least partially) monitoring it.

For example- i don't want them to mount an attack or use any form of threat like: "we have an alliance with GS, so watch it!". You can think of many other things these unexpected team might do with the idea of us actually having an alliance, so i think some work has to done in this matter, like explicitly saying that the talks of long term relationship and an alliance were only ideas, and that we don not see ourselves binded to any commitment yet.

There has to be better ways of phrasing this, maybe with a reference to this little "we thought it was ratified" incident, to make things a bit clearer for Vox, and to prevent any bigger future screw ups.

	05-02-2003 02:12									#7
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Yeah, I noticed the "we thought it was ratified" comment too. And it confirmed my worries that they were looking at Nathan's "informal" discussions with Jon as more or less formal.

-Arrian

	05-02-2003 02:29									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Say I'm a strong civ, and I have a neighboring strong civ, and somebody else has the GL. We can simply agree that I will research Monotheism -> Theology -> Education, while they research Engineering -> Feudalism -> Invention. Then, I give them Education, wait a turn, and then complete the trade (thus screwing the GL civ).

You're missing a few things. First, if this happens, then at least we'd get Monotheism and Theology, as well as Education. Second, Vox, being a scientific civ, will get a tech (most likely Feudalism) for free at the start of the Medieval Age and will be the second civ to get it (thus making us the third, through the GL of course).

I'm not saying that getting a second tech vassal is risk-free. We'll just have to reassess the risks involved when time comes and the GL nears completion.

	05-02-2003 03:56									#9
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Re: communication of Vox: Zeit, maybe it's an idea to start a protocol discussion thread, to get that ratified with Vox and other possible contacts. Something like "first we discuss things, and then, once both give formal approval the deal is in effect."

Re: the spoils of the GL: I think it's obvious we need to get to knights ourselves, and not let other teams snatch this tech, or the ones leading to it. Plus, I don't really want a situation where Vox can just buy all the techs they want from us, as it will certainly sour the relation we've got with the rest of the world. We've got the best chance of getting most out of our techs by trading it to several partners at once, being kind of a cheaper middleman.

As a long term strategy, I want to keep the possibility open that we take out Vox when knights arrive, or when we get to cavalry. We should have enough upgrade money available to take on every single civ, and Vox has the best chance of becoming isolated, thus not dragging us into a multisided conflict.

Good relations with neighbours might help when war breaks out; so let's try to keep more people as friends, and don't focus solely on Vox. Vox's use to us is primarily to get us in a safe position, with the GL, assuming we'll get it. After that, their use to us can be re-evaluated.

DeepO

	05-02-2003 05:20									#10
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I just can't see the civs not trading anything in order to destroy our advantage. I would say its more likely that they form an alliance to capture the GL.

Using the GL to tech vassalize another civ might lead to more animosity from the other civs.

	05-02-2003 22:46									#11
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quote: Using the GL to tech vassalize another civ might lead to more animosity from the other civs

Hey, they don't have to know about it , and by the time they'll do, hopefuly we get most of the benefits already.
I hardly see teams that devote them to naval warfare just for crippling an island civ with the GL, they'll have more concerns of their own neighbors.
OTOH, we better use some of the money we get from Vox to buy friends at the continent, to thwart the obvious alienation that will be caused by us not being very involved in the tech trading game. One target i set my sights upon is GoW, although they are a bit isolated, i don't think there is any better ally that money can buy...