05-02-2003 05:32									#1
	Minister of City-Planning Poll Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Short poll, because it is posted later than the others...

I've summarized all the current city production projects, and assembled recommendations for changes and "build next" suggestions. Based on that, our cities will produce a number of goods or improvements shortly. Some are finishing assorted odds&ends or military units, but the major efforts will result in:

8 - Superhighways
8 - Offshore Platforms
6 - Banks
4 - Marketplaces
3 - Libraries
3 - Factories
2 - Freight
1 - Temple

Developed cities with mostly land are designated straight to Superhighways, developed ocean cities and half/half cities will get Offshore Platforms first (the better to build Superhighways where useful afterwards). Medium cities with low production are being helped with factories. Some cities need the basic stuff.

I think this gives us a good balance of gold, trade, science, happiness. Tell me if I've over or under emphasized soon vital aspect of production.

My teams of talented Workers and planners exist only to serve the overall good of New Apolytonia...

Vote early and often...

	05-02-2003 06:19									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I didn't think to offer an "I'm delighted with the proposal". Either "More Everything" or the Banana option should mean that, though.

	05-02-2003 06:37									#3
	Got spare money?

I voted for more trade (even though I'm the science supernumerary).

Freight is so flexible - we can build wonders, or deliver it for the cash and science. If or when we build SETI, that means we need a total of 24 food freights to finish SETI and Apollo (eventually) - plus any commodities we plan on delivering. Plus we might want some food Freights stockpiled for building spaceship parts.

Is it your intention to do any rushbuying (perhaps with the cash that will result from the Trade Minister delivering the existing Freights)? If not, Apolytonia will have a lot of cities tied up for several turns building improvements. If a military crisis should recur, or if we need extra cash through freight delivery, we might be caught unprepared.

Aside from that concern, I think the distribution is fair

	05-02-2003 06:39									#4
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by cavebear I didn't think to offer an "I'm delighted with the proposal". Either "More Everything" or the Banana option should mean that, though.

I voted more happiness, more because I think we could celebrate in a lot of cities to get 2-3 growth in them instead of 1. The actual items being built looks excellent

	05-02-2003 07:04									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

If you have details on what tax rate settings would work for a binge of WLTPD and keep our tech and gold at acceptable levels, I'm open to the idea. I think it might be difficult to do, but I'm not the expert in city celebration and the benefits can be high.

We'd need specifics, though, at this point in the game. There are a lot of competing needs.

Open-minded, but cautious...

	05-02-2003 07:23									#6
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We have a lot of mid-sized cities that won't celebrate at all without a Courthouse or Cure for Cancer. I played with the luxury rates a bit to find that out. I don't have specifics other than that a higher luxury rate would induce celebrations in some of our larger cities and our smaller ones, mainly.

Probably any celebratory period would be short, due to lack of food surpluses... and no supermarkets/farmland (?)

	05-02-2003 07:30									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by cavebear If you have details on what tax rate settings would work for a binge of WLTPD and keep our tech and gold at acceptable levels, I'm open to the idea. I think it might be difficult to do, but I'm not the expert in city celebration and the benefits can be high. We'd need specifics, though, at this point in the game. There are a lot of competing needs. Open-minded, but cautious...

We can celebrate all even sized cities at our current luxuries with between 0-2 elvi except for Cordoba (ships at sea, already full food box), Hydeyville (built on forest), and Kazan (has more pressing needs)

A couple cities would need extra actions Malaga (rush marketplace), Pamplona (rehome engineers), Darkness Fort (Rush harbor or marketplace) to celebrate and Seville would need to avoid growing (has 4 food surplus, 2 food from full, and can't have a full food box on the round it grows by celebration)

Thats 10 cities that could grow in 2 rounds by celebrating, and a couple of those would grow again by food in a couple more rounds, where they can celebrate again.

One other note, even though Avila would need 2 specialists, only one needs to be an entertainer

	05-02-2003 07:33									#8
	Got spare money?

STYOM - I think that's the problem. We are already at 30% Luxury just to keep unhappiness under control. With the demands for military defense, science research towards the SS, and the demands for trade and shield production, I'm not sure we can afford city celebrations just now.

But if someone had real numbers where that would work....

	05-02-2003 07:45									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

It's an interesting possibility, and, as City-Manager, I woudn't mind extra Workers. And we do have 19 cities with food surpluses of 4 or more. I'm still concerned with our tech rate if we emphasize Luxuries fir several turns though.

I think this is a decision for President Ixnay to make.

	05-02-2003 07:56									#10
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by SCG We can celebrate all even sized cities at our current luxuries with between 0-2 elvi except for Cordoba (ships at sea, already full food box), Hydeyville (built on forest), and Kazan (has more pressing needs)

Is the "even-sized cities" thing a coincidence, or does that matter in general?

	05-02-2003 07:56									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ok, i miscounted, there are 11 that can celebrate

Here's your hard numbers cavebear increases in luxuries required NONE

Seville: Remove the worker on the non-shield grassland
shady trees: move one forest to ocean, remove other 2 forest workers
Saragossa: move worker from mines to roaded plains
Cadiz: remove worker from mines, move worker from non-shielded grassland to ocean
Malaga: remove forest worker, move worker from irrigated grassland to ocean (to save food), rush marketplace
Pamplona: rush harbor or rehome engineers (possibly cordoba?), remove both mine workers
Vigo: already celebrating, aquaduct to be finished this turn
Avila: remove worker from forest, remove worker from ocean, convert entertainer to taxman or scientist
Leon: move worker from mines to ocean
Whale Island: remove worker from forest
Darkness Fort: move worker from forest to ocean, remove other forest worker, rush harbor or marketplace

	05-02-2003 08:10									#12
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by cavebear Is the "even-sized cities" thing a coincidence, or does that matter in general?

Any luxuries over 2x population size is wasted. And you need to have at least 50% of the pop of a city happy and no unhappy to celebrate. because it requires 2 luxuries to convert a citizen to the next level of unhappiness, and on diety with many cities, the first citizen starts unhappy, the most we can convert to happy is 1/2. If the city is odd size, all we can do is convert the median citizen to content, not happy - (ie for size 7 - 3 happy, 1 content). With a courthouse, HG or CfC, we can make additional people happy. There are a couple of bugs dealing with the very unhappy people that allow for odd sized cities to celebrate (first 2 luxuries will convert the black head to happy), but not sure on the situations that cause that



you might want to read this thread for a little more info on happiness. The example pictures are no longer there from the original poster, but should be informative

	05-02-2003 08:20									#13
	Put an end to popups!

Whew, the exact opposite of the production strategy I was plotting. And you *would* have to do this just when I was planning to curl up in bed with the cats and get 6 whole hours of sleep!

OK, my initial evaluation: It's workable. And we could use the increase of city workers. It looks like we could maintain our tech rate discovery for a few turns. Maybe we get a bit less gold, but that's balanced by the additional workers. It slows down production in some few cities (like Leon). But it adds many Workers to the Cities.

I'm going to post this as a poll. It's beneficial, but close enough that the Citizens should decide.

	05-02-2003 08:41									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by cavebear Whew, the exact opposite of the production strategy I was plotting. And you *would* have to do this just when I was planning to curl up in bed with the cats and get 6 whole hours of sleep!

heh, sorry about that - i didn't realize you were planning on going quite so heavy on production as your plan. Hopefully not too many people will pick on me in the tricky sticky succession game for making more adjustments here than on my turn over there

As for whether the plan passes or fails, the suggestion for Seville grows to 11 in 4 turns, or we could be stuck at size 9 for 25 turns, so should be a no brainer

	05-02-2003 08:50									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

How long will those 11 cities celebrate for, SCG? Just 1 turn (until they become odd-sized), or longer?

For 12 Freights, and a science detour we could celebrate all cities, and also have the option to turn luxuries down to 20% if needed. That might be the more cost effective option.

This game will probably go at least another 40 turns, unless we really step up science production. Over 40 turns... having 20% lux instead of 30% is huge. And if we could increase our population dramatically, that'd be huge too.

Genetic Engineering isn't leading in my poll... so I think that prolonged celebration will have to wait. I agree with cavebear's (earlier) sentiment that increasing the lux rate is a bad idea.

	05-02-2003 09:17									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I leave the freight/trade delivery to the Minister of Trade. If that benefits of city celebration to more cities, than shine the bright light of the right night on the tight benighted fright of the AIight bite to the sight of celebraight!

(man, all those "ights")

	05-02-2003 09:19									#17
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man How long will those 11 cities celebrate for, SCG? Just 1 turn (until they become odd-sized), or longer?

Most would celebrate for just 1 turn. Seville and Malaga have a full enough food box that they could celebrate an additional time a couple turns later (haven't checked the odd sized cities for food storage). And yes, i agree that CfC would really grow the nation.

The main thing about this plan is that it grows 11 cities quickly with very minimal adjustments. The more radical the change (like redirecting science and production), the less likely it will be approved We are working as a team with a lot of people who don't think alike, and straying too far from the beeline for AC is going to lose support as well as lose people's interest.

	05-02-2003 09:26									#18
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

SCG, I agree completely. A one-shot deal of growing our cities with a WLTPD for only several turns seems worth the effort, especially since the rest of the cities keep going along their production paths with no change. If we were changing or tax rate percentasges, I would be far more hesitant.

Actually, I've been looking for an opportunity to grow our cities, but I didn't see the chance as quickly as you did. I got caught up in the details first turn.

Great work.

	05-02-2003 09:28									#19
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

OK then... I voted yes. 2 turns of losing a worker per affected city in exchange for 1 extra worker per affected city for the duration is a good deal.

Nice catch SCG

I have my grandiose schemes too but will put them on the back burner

	05-02-2003 09:33									#20
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Your turn will come. Me, I have to redo half the whole city spreadsheet.

	06-02-2003 03:13									#21
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Sounds like a good plan to me.

	06-02-2003 04:11									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I suppose I could wait a few turns before my grandiose plans as well.

	06-02-2003 05:08									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Darkness' Fort is only size 4. But all other changes incorporated into spreadsheet.

	06-02-2003 21:05									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

how does the military fit into all of this? like our naval bases for instance in cordoba?

only 2 freight?!!?

	06-02-2003 23:32									#25
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quote: Originally posted by H Tower how does the military fit into all of this? like our naval bases for instance in cordoba? only 2 freight?!!?

I proposed only 2 new reight because we have so many sitting around at the moment. It seemed like a good opportunity to improve our city production generally.