05-02-2003 07:46									#1
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quote: World - AP Europe Lawmakers Formally Abolish Yugoslavia 8 minutes ago By ALEKSANDAR VASOVIC, Associated Press Writer BELGRADE, Serbia-Montenegro - Erasing Yugoslavia from the map of Europe, lawmakers all but dissolved the troubled Balkan federation Tuesday and gave birth to a new country with a new name: Serbia and Montenegro. AP Photo Under a European Union (news - web sites)-brokered accord approved by parliament, the two republics stick together in a loose union that gives each greater autonomy and the trappings of statehood. The final breakup of the former Yugoslavia — outright independence for both — could come as soon as 2006. Widely seen as a compromise solution amid conflicting demands within both republics that Serbia and Montenegro be either firmly tied or completely separated, the accord preserves the alliance but allows each member state to hold an independence referendum after three years. The deal offers the republics near-total sovereignty, although they will remain linked by a small joint administration in charge of defense and foreign affairs. Yugoslavia, the federation's name for nearly three quarters of a century, is relegated to the history books. "This is a new beginning, but we should not be euphoric," Serbian Prime Minister Zoran Djindjic said after both chambers of parliament approved the overhaul. "This new country is based on a minimum of common interest between Serbia and Montenegro, and we should give it a chance," he said. Yugoslavia, founded in 1918 as the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, comprised six republics until the early 1990s, when Slobodan Milosevic (news - web sites) presided over a bloody breakup that saw Bosnia, Croatia, Macedonia and Slovenia secede. Serbia and Montenegro, tightly knitted for centuries, opted to stay together as a rump Yugoslav federation. But the relations between the republics soured, prompting the EU to mediate the accord last year in an effort to keep the two together and prevent fresh upheaval in the volatile region. The latest arrangement is meant to accommodate a strong independence movement in Montenegro, the smaller republic. Montenegro's leadership began boycotting federal institutions in 1998, prompting some Serbs to demand separation. Srdja Bozovic, a pro-Serbia official from Montenegro, hailed Tuesday's reform as "a fresh start for Serbia and Montenegro — an opportunity to have a stable state." But the new arrangement left many dissatisfied, including staunchly separatist leaders in both republics. "This new country is stillborn," said Vladan Batic of Serbia's Christian Democrats, who serves as justice minister in the Serbian government. He predicted the two republics would go their separate ways in three years. Equally unhappy were staunchly separatist Montenegrin politicians like Miodrag Zivkovic of the Liberal Alliance, who contended that Montenegro was being "cheated with this reform." "Full independence is our true interest," he said. Moderate politicians from both republics gave their crucial backing to the EU plan and pledged to establish a new administration for the new union by gradually downsizing and reforming existing federal bodies in the coming weeks. "The new state has a realistic chance of becoming a modern and prosperous country," said the outgoing Yugoslav prime minister, Dragisa Pesic. "We have opened the way for joining the European Union one day, but we must set up all new institutions here first," said Dragoljub Micunovic, the speaker of the Yugoslav parliament who presided over Tuesday's historic session. If the new state begins well, "people in both republics would forget about the possible (independence) referendums and decide to keep Serbia and Montenegro together," Micunovic said. Tiny Montenegro, which has just 650,000 people, is dwarfed by much-larger Serbia, home to 10 million. They "could go either way from here ... creating a truly functional union or going completely separate ways," said Serbian Deputy Prime Minister Miodrag Isakov. Nationalist parties in both republics opposed the reform, arguing that their deep historical ties ought to be preserved. Tuesday's overhaul leaves Yugoslav federal president Vojislav Kostunica (news - web sites) — who ousted Milosevic in elections in 2000 — without an official position. It also raises questions about the status of Kosovo, which remains officially in Serbia but was considered part of Yugoslavia under a key U.N. resolution. "Now it will be up to the new institutions of the union and to the governments of Serbia and Montenegro to make the union work — and make the promise of European integration a reality," said the EU's foreign policy chief, Javier Solana, who mediated the accord.

Thoughts?

	05-02-2003 07:50									#2
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Well, the Allied creation of Yugoslavia was a mistake, IMO. I'm not happy to see the dream of a unified Slavic Balkan state go though. But Kosovo is Serbia... if the UN goes against this, it will start a war.

	05-02-2003 07:50									#3
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Goodbye to the only "successful" communist state.

"Good Riddance" to the name of a place that symbolized all the wrong things about a country that was breathtakingly beautiful.

	05-02-2003 07:53									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Well, the Allied creation of Yugoslavia was a mistake, IMO. I'm not happy to see the dream of a unified Slavic Balkan state go though. But Kosovo is Serbia... if the UN goes against this, it will start a war.

When's the last time that you have been in Kosovo?

If you would WAKE UP, you would realize that Kosovo was lost the day NATO rolled across the borders.

Nationalistic CRAP is something I've unfortunately dealt with a few times, and it does noone any good.

	05-02-2003 07:57									#5
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Please please please include a link with news posts. Danke

	05-02-2003 08:00									#6
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http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europ...d.ap/index.html

	05-02-2003 08:01									#7
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a thousand thank yous

	05-02-2003 08:09									#8
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Hahah Flatlander you crack me up... and in a few years when the Hispanics in the Southwest want their own country, I'm sure you'll agree with them, right?

	05-02-2003 08:14									#9
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Serbia should just accept that Kosovo is gone. It will be its own independent little statelet, cuz Albania doesn't want it.

It's sad that Milosevic had to come to power and cause the break up. It was a working multi-national socialist state.

	05-02-2003 08:17									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Hahah Flatlander you crack me up... and in a few years when the Hispanics in the Southwest want their own country, I'm sure you'll agree with them, right?

Normally I don't reply to racist twelve year olds, but I will take exception:

The Hispanic population in the southwest (and on my doorstep in my home state in the Midwest) is not being hunted down, persecuted by ethnic laws taking away certain BASIC freedoms, or being shot at or forced to rape their own children.

In case you didn't know, all of these things happened to the Albanian population in Kosovo.

Perhaps you should once VISIT and study the land that you so idealistically worship, instead of spouting off rhetoric.

	05-02-2003 08:19									#11
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Che... I don't think you fully understand how much the Serb's cherish Kosovo. Imagine the United States relinquishing control of Gettysburg or any other national treasure. Now take into consideration the hundreds of years since the old Battle of Kosovo against the Turks.

	05-02-2003 08:23									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Flatlander Fox Normally I don't reply to racist twelve year olds, but I will take exception: The Hispanic population in the southwest (and on my doorstep in my home state in the Midwest) is not being hunted down, persecuted by ethnic laws taking away certain BASIC freedoms, or being shot at or forced to rape their own children. In case you didn't know, all of these things happened to the Albanian population in Kosovo. Perhaps you should once VISIT and study the land that you so idealistically worship, instead of spouting off rhetoric.

Nothing like insults to show the strength and intelligence of an argument

And you read almost word for word what CNN told you to... :clapping:... darnit... where's my clapping smiley!?

rape their own children? wow I couldn't have made something up better myself...

	05-02-2003 08:27									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Che... I don't think you fully understand how much the Serb's cherish Kosovo.

I do understand that, but it's really irrelevent now. The wish of the majority of people living there is independence. The principle of self-determination is pretty clearcut in this case.

	05-02-2003 08:32									#14
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Oh BTW, my cousin Dragy lives in Kragujevic. I visited him last year with my parents, my grandfather, and some of his old friends. I saw Kosovo. I saw the sight of the hospital that NATO bombed. I saw the Chinese Embassy that NATO bombed. I didn't see any of the mythical horrors that the Western media spoke about. Only the wreckage from bombs "Made in the USA". My Teta Katrina's neighbor lost her son the same day of the Columbine shootings.

So to all the puds that watch CNN and think they know about what's going on in Kosovo and the Balkan region, I've been there, I've seen it first-hand. So think about that as you sit on your 4sses flipping through the commercially run network news stations, then coming on 'Poly cutting and pasting the propaganda crap that they feed you.

	05-02-2003 08:34									#15
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I do understand that, but it's really irrelevent now. The wish of the majority of people living there is independence. The principle of self-determination is pretty clearcut in this case.

The thing you have to understand is that most of the Albanians in Kosovo are immigrants that moved there in the last 20 years, had 7-12 children, and suddenly they feel that this is their homeland? You don't just move to a region, f*ck like rabbits and steal land from a people that were there hundreds of years before you.

	05-02-2003 08:35									#16
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When I went to college, I had to Jewish Serbian Kosovar friends. This was in 1992, before the rest of the world had heard of Kosovo. My friend, "Sara," still had family in Kosovo, and she told me her uncles in Kosovo told her that the Albanians were raping and beating Serbs, trying to drive everyone else out of Kosovo, etc.

While it's true that Milosevic did make statements that greatly alarmed the Albanian community in Kosovo, a large part of the mess in Kosovo was their doing. They pulled their children from the schools, they stopped working in government, they stopped going to government helath clinics. The economy collapsed, and they blamed Belgrade.

When the KLA started trouble, well, yeah, the Yugoslavian government started hunting them down. I can't say I really blame them. After all, responsible governments are supposed to hunt down terrorists. Then the CIA got involved, and the KLA became a mafia.

We can see the "purity and nobility" of the motives of the KLA by the utopia they've created, by driving out the Serbs, the Jews, the Gypsies, the Romanians, the Macedonians, etc. The province has gone from 90% Albanian to 99.9% Albanian.

Yes, there was ethnic cleansing in Kosovo.

	05-02-2003 08:35									#17
	I'll write it all in caps so you at least have some ammunition, champ. Inflate your Upload Space

WOULD SOMEONE PLEASE TELL CERTAIN POSTERS THAT THE CONSTANT USE OF THESE:

TENDS TO MAKE THEM LOOK LIKE F*CKING RETARDS WITH QUESTIONABLE DEBATING AND/OR GENERAL FUNCTIONING SKILLS IN SOCIETY

	05-02-2003 08:37									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Sava The thing you have to understand is that most of the Albanians in Kosovo are immigrants that moved there in the last 20 years,

That's propoganda. Look at the ethnicity maps of the Balkans from before WWI. Kosovo was majority Albanian even then. They moved in during the Ottoman period.

	05-02-2003 08:39									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Sava The thing you have to understand is that most of the Albanians in Kosovo are immigrants that moved there in the last 20 years, had 7-12 children, and suddenly they feel that this is their homeland? You don't just move to a region, f*ck like rabbits and steal land from a people that were there hundreds of years before you.

Tell that to the American Indian.

ACK!

	05-02-2003 08:40									#20
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BTW, I would point out that the Serbs stole Kosovo from the Bulgars, who stole it from the Avars, who stole it from the Byzantines, who stole it from the . . . and so on back into history.

	05-02-2003 08:54									#21
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Sorry Chegitz, 20 years ago, Albanians were a minority. My family lives there okay, we know a little more about it than you. I'm not saying there wasn't displacement of ethnic Albanians, or that abled-bodied Albanian soldiers and militants weren't killed. And I can't say that every single Serb soldier behaved and didn't commit a warcrime. War is hell Che... Allied soldiers raped German women. IT HAPPENS IN WAR.

The Western media demonizes the Serbs and throws around catch phrases like "Ethnic cleansing" which most people equate with genocide. And it wasn't genocide. My Uncle Pedrag survived Auschwitz, he has a number tattooed on his arm. That was genocide. And ethnic cleansing is a sweeping generalization used to portray the Serbs as murdering, pillaging barbarians. By definition, the US commits "ethnic cleansing" every day when it goes into Hispanic communities and deports thousands a year. And have you ever heard of the Immigration problem in the US referred to as ethnic cleansing? No, of course not because it's preposterous. But yet, it's the same things the Serbs are trying to do. But when the Albanian population targets women and children, and uses terrorism (BTW they do receive Al Qaeda support); you can't expect the Serbs to sit by and watch their country stolen from them. If it's not the Turks, or the Nazis, or the Soviets, it's the Albanians... and the Serbs aren't about to let history repeat itself again.

But UN will probably grant Kosovo independence, spark a war; and then CNN will broadcast reports on Serb "atrocities" to it's mindless drones; many of whom will come on 'Poly and cut and paste web links to stories and say how evil the Serbs are.

	05-02-2003 08:56									#22
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara BTW, I would point out that the Serbs stole Kosovo from the Bulgars, who stole it from the Avars, who stole it from the Byzantines, who stole it from the . . . and so on back into history.

I know a bunch of elderly Serbs that will tell you that when God created the Earth, the Serbs were there first.

	05-02-2003 08:57									#23
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Sava, I KNOW I have more time there then you, I've (unfortunately) had to spend almost a year of my life there, saw the damages firsthand, and listened to interviews when people told about things that had happened to them.

You speak ONLY from prejudices, and from a bit of nationalistic fervor that seems slightly misplaced.

The Albanians are no saints, but they did not deserve what happened to many of them.

The same with the Serbs, as they are now being pushed out as the hatred comes back to them.

I called you a racist twelve year old because that's what you appear to be from your language and your attitudes towards people from other ethnicity.

If I was wrong about your age, then perhaps I'll take another guess at 13?

	05-02-2003 08:59									#24
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Oh wonderful, you're a Western Serb - my favorite type of closet nationalist. I kicked a Serb in the head once for punching his gf and had to run away from a whole swarm of pasty white, bent-nosed flag waving Serbs after a soccer game. They make me sick

	05-02-2003 09:01									#25
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BTW, I think a war for Kosovo would be a very bad idea on Serbia's part.

The casualties would be pretty awful... On the Serb side.

	05-02-2003 09:06									#26
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Excuse me, people from other ethnicity? Because I hate Albanian terrorists does not mean I hate someone of Albanian ethnicity. It's the difference between Nazis and Germans; the difference Muslims and the f*ckers that crashed the planes into the WTC.

Big deal, I'm not going to get into a pissing contest of who has spent more time in Kosovo. Plus, I don't believe you anyways. Maybe if you didn't insult people when you debated you'd have a shred of merit to anything you said.

But hey, if a US led NATO is going to kill Serbs for defending their homeland, they should know what to expect. They have had enough experience slaughtering foreign people's and breeding hate against them.

	05-02-2003 09:18									#27
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Spoken like someone who knows they don't have a leg to stand on!

And your "Breeding like f**king rabbits" statement is par for the course when dealing with people of your ilk.

Or was that directed towards the terrorists? What about the Croats that you despise so much?

Or the Bosnian Muslims?

They are all terrorists I suppose too?

The fact that you think that until twenty years ago there was a Serb majority there PROVES without a doubt that you are somewhat clueless on what exactly happened and what is happening there.

The fact is that I lived there, you visited. I was there as an observer, you hear biased stories about how YOUR FAMILY is getting screwed over. I can understand how your vision is so colored. But if you take a step back and look at what you are saying, perhaps you will see how narrow-minded it really is.

	05-02-2003 09:19									#28
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quote: But hey, if a US led NATO is going to kill Serbs for defending their homeland, they should know what to expect. They have had enough experience slaughtering foreign people's and breeding hate against them.

So you're a f*cking indignant Serb... it all makes sense now

	05-02-2003 09:26									#29
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First... enough with the personal insults. I see some people are just "asking" to be restricted. Just stop it... NOW.

And Zylka... you are one more swear word away from being restricted. The owners have the censor on for reason. Respect their wishes or find some place else to post.

	05-02-2003 09:27									#30
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I don't recall "rabbits" being an ethnic slur, but then again, I could be wrong.

And the thing about the Croats, I specifically singled out the Usteche. Got Glasses? I don't recall any comments on the Bosnian Muslims, making stuff up again?

BTW, I hear facts from my family about how my people are being screwed over. But continue to insult and spin my words.

EDIT: Crossposting Ming, sorry, I'm done with this thread anyhow. It's been exhausted of intelligent debate