07-02-2003 04:29									#61
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Still, it seems that Boschko is right, and the battle of Poitiers is overrated.

by the 700s, I don't think that what you describe is a relatively small contingent of Arab cavalry could be able to capitalize on any victory in the region.

	07-02-2003 04:34									#62
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I don't think Poitiers is overrated, but the effects I think are widely misunderstood. Without a Poitiers, there wouldn't be a Charlemagne (he'd get some crappy honorific ), IMO.

quote: Also the minor and short-lived disagreements that Byzantium had with the Sassanids contributed to this somewhat...

I'm a McNeill whore. I think the conflicts between the Roman and Persian Empires were much less important for the Arab conquests than the bubonic plague.

	07-02-2003 04:40									#63
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oh don't get me started on the Persian empire.

such a fine civilization, lost.

	07-02-2003 04:41									#64
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quote: I'm a McNeill whore.

Yes, Plagues and Peoples is impressive. However the plauges had a lot more to do with the collapse of the Empire of Justinian and the slav invasions of the Balkans than the Arab invasion, which probably would have been beaten back or at least contained it wasn't for the decades of wars with the Sassanids. And then there's the Monophylitism of the Syrian and Egyptians which didn't make them all that loyal to the Empire...

	07-02-2003 04:42									#65
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quote: such a fine civilization, lost.

Not to mention the cool religion
oh well at least its making a bit of comeback recently in Iran...

	07-02-2003 04:49									#66
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Yeah, the religion was rather cool as well, or so I heard, my knowledge of it is... lacking. I don't really care about the religion, only in the cultural and philosophical sence, that's the only way they're nice.

What I heard of it is that it is somewhat monotheistic, but in a different way than judaism.

I am sure that a historian can tell me more about it.

	07-02-2003 05:18									#67
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Has anyone mentioned the American War of Independence?

You Yanks are sooo ungrateful towards the nation that saved your butts - talk about biting the hand that fed you!

If it wasn't for them you'd be using metric now...

	07-02-2003 05:21									#68
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quote: You Yanks are sooo ungrateful towards the nation that saved your butts - talk about biting the hand that fed you!

We've more than repaid the favor.

	07-02-2003 05:46									#69
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Let's not forget 1066 and the battle of Hastings.

	07-02-2003 06:26									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Let's not forget 1066 and the battle of Hastings.

Normans aren't the same as French, are they?

	07-02-2003 07:16									#71
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Hey, France gets military victories in the NES I play it in.

Oh, all the listed victories in RL must be about Napoleon

	07-02-2003 07:43									#72
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Has anyone mentioned the American War of Independence? You Yanks are sooo ungrateful towards the nation that saved your butts - talk about biting the hand that fed you! If it wasn't for them you'd be using metric now...

speaking about the Revolutionary War, I saw The Patriot the other night. I saw it along time ago and remember it being a good movie... what the hell was I on!? That was a poor, poor movie. It was just so...cheesey, especially that last battle scene.

Kman

	07-02-2003 17:41									#73
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quote: In general, medieval armies had been rather small.

I've heard somwhere that in the 8th century, each province (thema) of the Byzantine Empire was obliged to conscript an army of 70.000 if the Empire needed it.

This may be incorrect, but if it is true, THAT's no small army.

	07-02-2003 17:55									#74
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i think the total number of combatants in the Battle of Hastings was around 20000- 7000 Saxons and 13000 normans.

	07-02-2003 20:43									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Kingof the Apes Normans aren't the same as French, are they?

The Normans were only about a hundred years from being Vikings (who were given Normandy to stop them kicking French butt).

It is a bit ironic that the British have a long history of losing battles yet winning wars and for the French it is the other way round.

axi: Until Manzikert the Byzantines could regularly raise armies of 150-200,000 from central anatolia. After Manzikert they lost the area and their main recruiting ground, and eventually everything.

	07-02-2003 20:59									#76
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While I laughed at LaRusso's caption, I failed to see the humor in the Sten Sure's post. Xenophobic slur it is, undoubtedly.

	07-02-2003 21:03									#77
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My apologies, I thought it was obviously satirical.

	07-02-2003 21:13									#78
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Apologies accepted Sten. Actually, I was rather referring to Drake's statement on GePap's humor (sure, Drake admitted he is bent towards bad taste )

	07-02-2003 21:18									#79
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quote: such a fine civilization, lost.

Civilizations rise and fall. It happens.

	07-02-2003 21:23									#80
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quote: However the plauges had a lot more to do with the collapse of the Empire of Justinian and the slav invasions of the Balkans than the Arab invasion, which probably would have been beaten back or at least contained it wasn't for the decades of wars with the Sassanids. And then there's the Monophylitism of the Syrian and Egyptians which didn't make them all that loyal to the Empire...

But the theory that plague didn't play that significant part in the conquests doesn't explain Arab conquests in Western North Africa and Spain very well. I agree that they wouldn't have made it if were not for the Monophysitism of Egypt and Syria, though.

	07-02-2003 21:58									#81
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quote: But the theory that plague didn't play that significant part in the conquests doesn't explain Arab conquests in Western North Africa and Spain very well.

Well it does sort of, the collapse of the Justinian Empire allowed a decentralized Goth kingdom to take over Spain that never had that firm root since the regime was Arian (IIRC) while the population was Catholic. Similarly, the war with Persia lead to the stripping of forces from Western North Africa (Heraclius took the North African army to coup the Empire when he took over).

	08-02-2003 06:24									#82
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I love discussing with history students!

If I weren't an engineer, I would have been a historian, for sure.

	14-03-2003 08:27									#83
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hvb