06-02-2003 01:55									#1
	ND Border proposal!!! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

This is the border proposal the ND emailed to Togas.



That's not good, because they want the coast and the silks... We need to work very hard with this.

	06-02-2003 04:31									#2
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I don’t care so much about the silks because we already have a source. But we desperately need the iron.

	06-02-2003 04:57									#3
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Given that ND is pressed for space in the north, they need room to settle. Their proposal, however, give them the jungle and territory where they could only place two cities, and cedes the rest of the settleable territory to Lux (???)

This is not acceptable.

However, we must tell this to them nicely.

Proposal: We get them to agree that their primary need is further growth. We "give" them the northern valley and surrounding areas and explain to them the defensive benefits it would give them against Lux.

If they still say no, we explain that we have only 1 source of iron, it's in the west valley, and we cannot give it up. We also feel it would be unreasonable to give them 1 city on the silk just because they want those luxuries, and have it surrounded by our cities. What is far more reasonable is to have a safe buffer between us, the jungle, that will ensure that we remain at peace and that no one is tempted to later attack the other.

--Togas

	06-02-2003 04:58									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

And the Gems

I'm not for this proposal, but how can we tell them that that's ours with out any bad feeling.

E_T

	06-02-2003 05:11									#5
	Is ND hiding something from us? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The area just under the "trade road" words... How can they have revealed that land without revealing at the very least the tile NW of the word "trade" or the ones south of "to confirm"?

That is too tight of a space. IIRC, the line of sight in the jungle is 1 tile in all directions -- that would not create the shape we are seeing. Could they have seen all that from the mountain directly north or are they deliberately concealing something?

	06-02-2003 06:35									#6
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Its possible they shaded it - it looks like good job. But what could they be hiding? A settler party?

This is their first offer - we should continue to hash an agreement and in the meantime settle in the west.

	06-02-2003 07:09									#7
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Plus, I can NOT see the Horse that should be right under that Trade road, just south of ND's Capitol. I even looked at a blowup of that area on their map. They can see our Horse.... so we should be able to see theirs.

They just might have something that will get their before we do, if just to keep us from settling there.

E_T

	06-02-2003 08:43									#8
	A plan to deal with possible ND settler Tired of ads?

Well, I ran a scenario and found that it is possible for the fog to look the way it does according to my earlier post.

A unit positioned atop the mountain NW of the one which contains the gold resource would have created the pattern we are seeing.

It means they probably have not scouted that area yet after all.

However, I took a look at the horse resource too, and could not see it in the blow up just as ET couldn't. They could be concealing a unit that is currently on that tile. The fact that they positioned the text right over the top of it could have been done to try to cover their tracks. If this were true, they are only six turns away from their specified location in their proposal, seven away from actually founding the city.

Now, who precedes who in turns for the save? If they we precede them, we can have the jump on them in that they will enter our line of sight when it is still our turn to move.

We could conceivably attempt to cut them off/delay them with the spearman from Saragossa, reinforce Sargossa with the spear that will be escorting the settlers from Pamplona, and have the spearman and settler rendevous at the new city site.

Needless to say, it would be close. Any thoughts?

Last edited by ruby_maser on 06-02-2003 at 09:04

	06-02-2003 09:03									#9
	Expanded plan to deal with possible ND settler Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser We could conceivably attempt to cut them off/delay them with the spearman from Saragossa, reinforce Sargossa with the spear that will be escorting the settlers from Pamplona, and have the spearman and settler rendevous at the new city site.

Another possibility is that we could do this is conjunction with help from.... GoW

Bare with me. We could offer to sell GoW Writing for less than the alloted 60 gold in order to enlist their services in forming a wall with the spear from Saragossa that a potential ND settler could not get around.

GoW could not be told the purpose of their mission, only that we would be willing to knock off such-and-such gold from the deal if they would be willing to take their western-most warrior and beeline for "X" tile.

We then proceed to move the spear out of Saragossa to be directly beside them at the appropriate point in time. And the settler from Pamplona (and maybe the warrior south of GoW's warrior) follow up behind. Also, the spear out of Pamplona instead go to Saragossa to garrison the city. It would only be undefended briefly.




ND's non-aggression pact offer would make perfect sense if they were sending an unescorted settler or way. Maybe I'm planning for something that won't happen, but if we don't take precautions, they have a good shot at getting our silks.

	06-02-2003 10:38									#10
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New proposal from Togas:

	06-02-2003 12:44									#11
	Re: Expanded plan to deal with possible ND settler Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser Another possibility is that we could do this is conjunction with help from.... GoW Bare with me. We could offer to sell GoW Writing for less than the alloted 60 gold in order to enlist their services in forming a wall with the spear from Saragossa that a potential ND settler could not get around. GoW could not be told the purpose of their mission, only that we would be willing to knock off such-and-such gold from the deal if they would be willing to take their western-most warrior and beeline for "X" tile. We then proceed to move the spear out of Saragossa to be directly beside them at the appropriate point in time. And the settler from Pamplona (and maybe the warrior south of GoW's warrior) follow up behind. Also, the spear out of Pamplona instead go to Saragossa to garrison the city. It would only be undefended briefly.

This might also provide an opportunity to diffuse potential warmongering tendencies towards us from GoW as an employer.

The yellow dots in the map are our suggested city sites to ND?

	06-02-2003 17:40									#12
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This map could be just a bargaining tool; they ask something big just to obtain the northeastern area.
The mention of Lux (even with a question mark) is not sincere, to say the least.
And the trade road is unbelievable : it is exactly the invasion road that we must build ASAP.

Also, they dont need the gems in the south since they have one next door. But we absolutely need the iron, and the two of them, because we need a back up in case the first connected is exhausted (which happens sometimes).

	06-02-2003 17:58									#13
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I don't recommend telling them that we need the iron source.

That would be giving them a very valuable information!!! What do you think they would do if they know that we don't have iron? Do you think they would respect the 20 turn NaP? Of course not!

	06-02-2003 18:04									#14
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They must be mad! To expect us to give away the silk!??! Tell them to get their heads out of the skies and look at the facts! Silk city is ours. The great jungle is the natural border and an attempt to cross it should be answered with the fiercest resistance possible, war!

The land IS ours, our gods have given it to us and we the people of Spain will NEVER accept any outlanders in the land that so rightfully belongs to us. Give them the valley of Sierra Shinies, we'll cancel city site #14 as well, that would be extremely gracious of us. If they think we'll believe that we have half the continent they are mad, the lands of the earth are near endless to the north if three civilizations can exist there, of course it would be crowded, another civ in our land would make it extremely crowded in our opinion.
It is clear that they are exagerrating to the extreme in order for us to give up as much land as possible. We should give them another proposal that they would deem unreasonable and finally end with a compromise putting them NORTH of the jungle

Anything else will infuriate the people of Spain to degree making them unaccountable for the consequences.

	06-02-2003 18:15									#15
	Re: Expanded plan to deal with possible ND settler Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser ND's non-aggression pact offer would make perfect sense if they were sending an unescorted settler or way. Maybe I'm planning for something that won't happen, but if we don't take precautions, they have a good shot at getting our silks.

The NaP is suposed to be in effect right now, so we can use it to ourselves doing exactly what señor ruby_maser sugests. If they kill our undefended settle that would mean war!

	06-02-2003 20:09									#16
	Re: A plan to deal with possible ND settler Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser ... If this were true, they are only six turns away from their specified location in their proposal, seven away from actually founding the city. Now, who precedes who in turns for the save? If they we precede them, we can have the jump on them in that they will enter our line of sight when it is still our turn to move. We could conceivably attempt to cut them off/delay them with the spearman from Saragossa, reinforce Sargossa with the spear that will be escorting the settlers from Pamplona, and have the spearman and settler rendevous at the new city site. Needless to say, it would be close. Any thoughts?

Since Neu Theben is currently (1870 BC) size 4, that could probably mean that they haven't produced a settler yet, but maybe at the next turn. In this case we'll found our silk city just on their noses.

	06-02-2003 20:32									#17
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quote: Since Neu Theben is currently (1870 BC) size 4, that could probably mean that they haven't produced a settler yet, but maybe at the next turn. In this case we'll found our silk city just on their noses.

Still we should move the saragossa spearman out just in case. We dont know what they might have, but they shall not take our land!

	06-02-2003 20:48									#18
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Founding a city on the silk would be very bad diplomacy. ND will think, why negotiate with someone who is going to do what they want anyway under our noses? And quite rightly too.

I hope they take the bait of the eastern lands, though.

If worse comes to worst we ought to give up the silk because we already have one by Barcelona and even if ND takes all the silk we won’t need it. We have other supplies of other luxuries to trade. We should not get a reputation for greediness.

Why don’t we offer Most Favoured Silk Trade Nation status to ND?

	06-02-2003 21:05									#19
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The problem with their border proposal señor Pikesfan is that the left side is not well defined. It goes in the dark, but until where?

	06-02-2003 21:37									#20
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quote: Originally posted by pikesfan If worse comes to worst we ought to give up the silk because we already have one by Barcelona and even if ND takes all the silk we won?t need it. We have other supplies of other luxuries to trade. We should not get a reputation for greediness. Why don?t we offer Most Favoured Silk Trade Nation status to ND?

The issue is not so much the silk than the defence of our home land. A ND city on the silk would be a permanent threat of invasion. It would be a gate opened on the Cows valley. Much more than our reputation is at stake. And regarding the negociations, we never proposed to discuss of their settling south of the jungle.

	08-02-2003 00:21									#21
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I must again stress that we cannot accept ANY other nations south of the jungle! No matter how friendly at this moment in time.
We cannot know that ND is truly friendly, or that they will remain friendly in times to come.
Would we accept that GoW placed a city there if they had started where ND is? Hell No! And since we cannot really trust any nation we must take that land for ourselves. It is vital that we have a natural defensive line. Simply tell ND that such a deal is impossible.

If they wont accept the Sierra shinies valley and be satisfied with that then they should declare war, cause I will never accept those filthy dogs in our god-given land.

	08-02-2003 03:00									#22
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That gives me an idea. Why not say that a settlement south of the jungle would always be a tempting target for us? Discourage them from making us an enemy?

	08-02-2003 03:11									#23
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I agree that they should recognise the temptation and danger of settling right beside us, but from their side of things, the greed of snatching both of those high lux areas is too hard to ignore. They also proposed the "trade road" in their plan, which was a poor idea. It could be used as a highway for bringing in troops to take the rest of the valley in the future.

However, all their "high hopes" aside, they face a very real threat of war in the north. That must surely overshadow any of their other idealistic plans for settlement. And while I'm sure they want to settle these lux-rich areas, they surely want to snatch up key spots in the north before their enemies take them. That would be my highest priority if I were them.

--Togas

	08-02-2003 15:59									#24
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I quote my post from the 1830BC thread :

"

I'm afraid that ND is lying to us. They are currently stronger than us and consequently than Lux and have no reason to fear them. IMO, they could settle east (Brilliants Valley) without threat from Lux. They are trying to find arguments to justify their demand for settle in our lands...

On another hand, I don't think they have already a settler on the jungle near us to found the silk city : Neu Thebes has still 4 pop, and we can doubt that they have send a settler from another city for this purpose.

"

	08-02-2003 18:27									#25
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I Completely agree with señor Astronicus. Knowing that ND is much stronger than Lux makes their claims a nonsense. They "give" the East lands to Lux so we cannot argue about them and they even want more lands. And it's not only the number of tiles. It's the silk, the gems, the road to attack us much more easily (otherwise they would have to cross the jungle which would be really bad for their 3 movement UU) and our access to the iron.

Also during the meeting they stayed lots of time wothout saying anything. They were no doubt chatting privately meanwhile.