06-02-2003 10:49									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Ted is spot on. He is very into how he feels about someone personally. He's very unpolitical about things in that way.

That's worse - that means you have a kid with a very large bat in power. If he is willing to get lots and lots people killed, to flush billions of dollars down the drain, and to impoverish the Iraqi people as a whole, just to get at this one person, this is Very Bad. That means he doesn't think with his head. You don't want somebody like him in power.

	06-02-2003 10:50									#32
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why do you associate feelings of serenity with drugs?

that's what destroyed the hippie movement in the US.

That's also why the Communist party of Greece said no to drugs. One of its moments of rare sobriety


edit: threadjacking sorry

	06-02-2003 10:51									#33
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quote: That's worse - that means you have a kid with a very large bat in power. If he is willing to get lots and lots people killed, to flush billions of dollars down the drain, and to impoverish the Iraqi people as a whole, just to get at this one person, this is Very Bad. That means he doesn't think with his head. You don't want somebody like him in power.

That does depend. Some people like those that think with their hearts first. It's a matter of preference.

	06-02-2003 10:53									#34
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A war on Iraq would damage the world oil supply, not help it. That could do severe damage to our economy. Anyone who thinks this war is economically related is dead wrong...

	06-02-2003 10:54									#35
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Hey paiktis you bring up a good point, I learned something new today.

Unfortunatley as a side effect of American consumer driven society, we are taught that the way to deal with problems is to consume.

We don't have that 2000+ year old Greek culture of spirituality to guide us. I'd say that's the #1 failing of the USA, is that many of us have become spiritually bankrupt. No amount of consumption can fill that void.

So the problem becomes when people don't know know how to look inward for stength, instead they look outward for some product or stimulation to fix them.

	06-02-2003 10:54									#36
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Oil better be part of the picture, if we don't grab that oil to help pay for the war I'll be even more pissed. I want that oil! Damn right! And the oil should be used to pay off US manufacturers to help rebuild Iraq...

	06-02-2003 10:58									#37
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Urban,

That can indeed be a problem. Especially with hotheads like Rice and Rumsfeld in the picture. Luckily Powell is there to temper Bush's gut directions and Rice is there to give clarity and Chaney is the one who actually formulates a plan out of it all behind the scenes.

	06-02-2003 11:01									#38
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And then Bush either vetos and approves Cheney's plan. If you've ever see them together, you know which one is boss... and it ain't Cheney .

	06-02-2003 11:05									#39
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My favorite line from Bush is still, "we're going to find out who did this, and we're going to kick their asses!"

USA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

	06-02-2003 11:10									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker [...] And the oil should be used to pay off US manufacturers to help rebuild Iraq...

Yes, it should, but this will never happen.

Unfortunately, no altruistic ideology stands behind this war, only the desire for money and power (IMHO).

	06-02-2003 11:29									#41
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UR:

I can take Iraq more seriously in its denials the moment it can come up with counterpoints that rely less on shrillness and more on substance. About the only part of Powell's presentation that still has me less than convinced is the part where he presented alleged evidence of al-Qaida links to Saddam Hussein.

As for sharing all the evidence U.S. intelligence (and other foreign agencies) has gathered, I'm split on it. On one hand, you have to consider that if you give it freely and it leaks, you can say goodbye to your sources — they'll either clam up or, um, "disappear." Yet if you don't share it, then others question you constantly. Personally, I think all the evidence could be shown to Hans Blix and ElBaradei (sp) w/o any risk of them leaking it. But I wouldn't share it with the rest of the inspectors. Those two would be enough.

On an unrelated note, has 'Poly been slower than molasses for anyone else? This page alone took 99 seconds to load and display, and I have a cable connection to the Internet.

Gatekeeper

	06-02-2003 12:14									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Actually, I would love to see mr Powell running for presidency.. he has the worlds respect by his character alone, not just power and all that.

He had the option once but he declined. Maybe he'll think about it again after Dubya loses the next election.

	06-02-2003 12:26									#43
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Powell, unfortunately, will *not* run for the presidency. He values his privacy and family life. Can't say I blame him ... heh, kind of reminds me of Cincinnatius (sp).

Gatekeeper

	06-02-2003 12:41									#44
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That's too bad. I think he would make one hell of a president. Powell...

	06-02-2003 12:48									#45
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No, Powell did not ruin his reputation. He did what he was expected to do. He was suppose to show why the Bush administration believes that Saddam has WoMD, and why they think he's hiding evidence from the inspectors among other things. He did that brilliantly. I admit that it's not enough to satisfy some of you. I really believe that some of you have smoked too much pot if you think that what Powell said was less than truthfull, or that he acted dishonestly.

	06-02-2003 13:11									#46
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i think powell was pressured into it, and thats sad.

and thats it duncan...we reefer madness crazed lefties think he was lying. i dont think he was lying at all. i just dont think we can go invade a nation for phantom reasons.

	06-02-2003 13:16									#47
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"Phantom reasons" = lies, by another name. You're accusing him lying.

	06-02-2003 13:21									#48
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So explain to me this. Supposedly many hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have died due to sanctions. Those sanctions are in place due to Saddam not fully cooperating with terms of the last cease fire.

Now the US led by Bush wants to put an end to the charade of the 'peace' with Iraq. OK. Maybe 10,000 people get wasted and then the sanctions end. What is that compared to the hundreds of thousands of dead due to the 'peace'?

	06-02-2003 13:28									#49
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im accusing the adminstration of lying and powell of being coerced into believing the lie.

	06-02-2003 13:31									#50
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Since when has Powell shown himself to be coercible?

	06-02-2003 13:34									#51
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 im accusing the adminstration of lying and powell of being coerced into believing the lie.

Glad you're there to cast your vote. Now what about the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis? What about them?

	06-02-2003 13:38									#52
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quote: Those sanctions are in place due to Saddam not fully cooperating with terms of the last cease fire.

No, they are in place because the US said they would veto any attempt to lift the sanctions until the regime was changed. The UN resolution held out the promise that sanctions would be lifted if Iraq complied with inspections, but the US blew that out of the water AFTER the cease fire. So, even if Iraq complied, the sanctions would stay in place. Peace and compliance is not what the US wants, we want regime change...

	06-02-2003 13:43									#53
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hmmm, americans killing iraqis through sanctions or americans kiling iraqis through warfare. neither is good, after the war what certainty is there? who will rise to power? will we try to force democracy on them? how much money and terrorsim will continue because of this?

the only certainty is that another generation of arabs will hate american "imperialism" and terrorism will not end because of this.

this is a personal vendetta the likes i have only seen from miriam.

	06-02-2003 13:46									#54
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hmm. I think it is the UN that has imposed sanctions. I don't recall the French or Germans out in full force against them. I do recall them being out against action that would end the sanctions... which would end up with fewer Iraqi casualties than the sanctions have produced.... if my information is correct.

Hmm. Who is right here?

	06-02-2003 13:53									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker The UN resolution held out the promise that sanctions would be lifted if Iraq complied with inspections,

Which Saddam has never done.

quote: but the US blew that out of the water AFTER the cease fire. So, even if Iraq complied, the sanctions would stay in place. Peace and compliance is not what the US wants, we want regime change...

So, Clinton was after a regime change too? Seems a little ahead of his time.

	06-02-2003 14:23									#56
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so youre saying explicitly killing people is better than providing incentives?

	06-02-2003 14:28									#57
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quote: Which Saddam has never done.

Why should he? The sanctions wouldn't be lifted if he did comply. The US made it clear shortly after the Gulf War it would not comply with UN resolution 687 either.

quote: So, Clinton was after a regime change too? Seems a little ahead of his time.

He was, he never reversed Bush 1's policy that the US would veto any attempt to lift the sanctions even if Iraq complied. Think about it, UN resolution 687 said that the sanctions would be lifted if Iraq disarmed and complied with inspections. But the US, having the power to veto lifting the sanctions, said it would block lifting the sanctions - that was in itself a violation of the UN resolution. The whole point of the sanctions was to get Iraq to comply, buy if Iraqi compliance would do nothing to lift the sanctions, compliance was not our goal.

Another lie we are often told is that Iraq kicked the inspectors out in 1998. No, the inspectors were ordered out by Clinton prior to a bombing campaign. And according to Scott Ritter, the CIA was using the inspections to spy on Iraq and Saddam and that the Iraqis knew this was going on.

How about one more lie? The Saudis and the American people were told Iraq was massing troops on the Saudi border after it's successful invasion of Kuwait. The reason was to invade Saudi Arabia. Satellite photos were the "proof", but a few months after the Gulf War, it was discovered the satellite photos were phony - a lie to get the Saudis to let us "defend" them from a non-existent invasion. Why all the lies?

	06-02-2003 15:15									#58
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I saw tonight on TV that Powell used a Taliban terrorist group in North Eastern Iraq which I have mentioned on this forum as evidence of Saddam's links with terrorism.

First off, this group is operating in an area Saddam does not control (against the Kurds). Second, its supported by Iran. Third, its leader hates Saddam Hussein, is in exile in Holland and trying to overthrow him.

*shakes head* This information is in the public domain.

	06-02-2003 15:56									#59
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Okay, I'll bite -- details, please.

	06-02-2003 18:20									#60
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Hey! I can take a picture of my apartment complex and write "Chemical weapons plant on it" and present it as evidence!

What little respect I had for Powell is gone after that retarded presentation yesterday. He's just the Bush admin's token black guy.