07-02-2003 06:59									#31
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To Togas from Panzer32, 31 January 2003

quote: Togas, Yes, adaMada and I have been in touch. He has wanted to include a no trade clause in the deal, and we have been trying to agree on one. If you wish to do the following deal you proposed exactly how you said it, then the Glory of War will accept: (We=Roleplay, You=GoW) quote: We receive HBR from you. We follow the warrior (I think his name is Basher) as he moves north from the Eneros Mountains, through the desert, and into the jungle. We then exchange Writing for 60g. I thank you for your time, and again assure you that adaMada has been in touch. Panzer32, Foreign Affairs Consul for the Glory of War

From Togas, 31 January 2003

quote: I'm glad to hear that you two are in touch. If for some reason you don't hear from him in a reasonable period of time, let me know. I would agree right now but I don't want to waste adaMada's efforts. He's done a lot to negotiate this deal with you guys and I'd like to let him finish the job. --Togas

From adaMada, 31 January 2003
[quote[Dear Panzer,
Togas has just told me that Ghengis dropped him an odd note in the most recent save -- something about your warrior returning to our lands or whatnot as you've "waited for several turns and there has not been an offer". I must admit, I was rather surprised at this, as I sent an offer last night -- accepting condition three and your original offer for a fifteen turn no-tech trade agreement. Assuming the PM came through all right, I've gotta assume that this is simply a mistake. I understand that both teams obviously need time to discuss before making a further deal, but I feel that we are negotiating, and that we have made an offer. I’m sure it’s probably a mistake, or perhaps overlapping events, but I wanted to shoot you a quick PM and try to clarify the whole issue before anything gets out of hand .

-- adaMada[/quote]

	07-02-2003 07:04									#32
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Replay from Panzer32 on 1 February 2003

quote: adaMada, It seems that in the chaos, that your PM got forgot about (perhaps because a new page was started after its posting). We have also recieved messages from Togas asking whether you have been active. I now see that you have been waiting for us... Therefore (wording changed to reflect Roleplay having discovered writing): The Glory of War accepts this deal. The points are: -GoW Gives: Horseback riding, warrior removal, and 60 gold, all now. -Roleplay Gives: Writing, now. -Neither team will trade the tech it acquires for fifteen turns after acquisition. This deal is accepted by the GoW. When Roleplay accepts it, it will be final. About the 15 turn non-trading: I assume this starts at 1950bc, since that is the curent turn. I calculate that 15 turns from that is 1500bc, since the switch from 40 year turns to 25 year turns happens at 1750bc. If I am wrong, please contact me. Thank you. Also, question: what tech is Roleplay researching now? This is so the Glory of War can chose a different tech and then we can trade. Panzer32, Foreign Affairs Consul the Glory of War

Here comes the change...

From Togas, 3 February 2003

quote: Panzer32, I am sorry that we have not gotten back to you sooner, but there was far too much discussion on the language of this deal, and adaMada has been too busy with school to follow up this weekend so I have decided to prepare this letter to you because we need to close this deal. We agree to the following: -GoW Gives: Horseback riding, warrior removal, and 60 gold in exchange for writing. -Roleplay Gives: Writing, after removal of warriors. -Neither team will trade the tech it acquires for fifteen turns after acquisition of tech from the other team. - Both Basher & Basher Jr. must be removed. - Removal consists of moving to a point north of Saragossa. Saragossa is located on the southern edge of the jungle. quote: Also, question: what tech is Roleplay researching now? This is so the Glory of War can chose a different tech and then we can trade. We will be happy to discuss future tech research and trade after all GoW warriors have been removed. --Togas

To Togas and adaMada from Panzer32, 4 February 2003

quote: Togas, I am sorry, but the Glory of War cannot accept this revised agreement. The original agreement called for writing to be exchanged "upon aquisition". Since Roleplay has now aquired writing, "upon aquisition" means immediatly. The Glory of War is upset at the arbitrary changing of the deal by Roleplay. If we go back to the original agreement, where the warriors do not have to be removed BEFORE the tech deal goes through, the Glory of War would be happy to trade with Roleplay. To recap the aforementioned agreement: -GoW Gives: Horseback riding, warrior removal, and 60 gold in exchange for writing, all immediatly. -Roleplay Gives: Writing, immediatly. -Neither team will trade the tech it acquires for fifteen turns after acquisition of tech from the other team. -Both Basher & Basher Jr. will be removed. I think that Roleplay might have not quite understood the term "removal" of warriors. To clarify, this means the warriors will go back home to the Glory of War lands, north of where Neo Demogyptica is located. I hope this has not been the reason this agreement has been held up. Again, if Roleplay agees to this, there will be no hard feelings. However, if Roleplay does not agree, the Glory of War will be extremely upset. We have no guarantee that you will not change the contract again as you just did. Roleplay, seemingly out of blue, reworded an agreed upon treaty to include a city of Sargossa that was never mentioned before. We will be extremely wary of trading with Roleplay in the future, since they are liable to reword the agreement and thus reneg on the agreement. If Roleplay does not accept this deal, and thus betrays us, the Glory of War would have no alternative but to warn the other teams of their behaviour to us. On a somewhat unrelated note: There are two groups of jungle. How is the Glory of War supposed to know exactly where Saragossa is. There are two jungles, and therefore two southern edges of the jungle. We have discovered a couple Roleplay cities, but have not discovered the names. Even if the Glory of War would agree to go along with your revised agreement, we would not know where exactly Roleplay wanted us to go. Even so, there is no way the Glory of War would accept the revised agreement, this last paragraph was just for future reference. Thank you, Panzer32, Foreign Affairs Consul for the Glory of War

	07-02-2003 07:07									#33
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From Togas, 4 February 2003

quote: Panzer, There is no prior "agreement" which is why we are attempting to negotiate this one with you. Our concern is primarily for the removal of your warriors. That has been and will remain a vital part of the agreement. A definition must be created to define removal. Therefore, I propose the following: -GoW Gives: Horseback riding, and returns all military units near Spanish territory home. For the purpose of this agreement, this process will be called "removal". GoW will give 60 gold in trade for writing after removal. -Roleplay Gives: Writing after removal of all GoW warriors in exchange for 60 gold. -Neither team will trade the tech it acquires for fifteen turns after acquisition of tech from the other team. -Basher & Basher Jr., and any other GoW warriors in RolePlay territory will be removed and return home. A warrior considered "removed" once he moves north of Saragossa. Basher will be "removed" if he moves North four times. Upon that turn he will be just north of a river, and have a game tile to his SE. That tile, and any tiles further north of it, is north of Saragossa and will sufficiently demonstrate that the warrior is "removed" from Spanish territory. Should any GoW miltary unit move to any tile south (SE & SW included) of that tile, it will demonstrate that GoW does not intend to remove and return home, and will violate this agreement. Should Basher (while still south of Saragossa) move in any direction other than north, that will demonstrate that GoW does not intend to comply with this agreement, and this agreement will be violated. Do you agree to these terms and definitions? --Togas

To adaMada from Panzer32, 5 February 2003

quote: adaMada, I can see now how Roleplay is conducting their diplomacy. Roleplay is conducting as Hitler did with Britain before World War II. Roleplay is assured we won't attack them, because of both our nonagression pact and the distance from the Glory of War homeland. Roleplay is playing on this fact, and is trying to squeeze more out of the Glory of War in diplomacy. We have no desire to be your Chamberlain by feeding into your leadership's egomania and their continually altering demands. Roleplay told the Glory of War they would trade writing to us for a certain deal, and we accepted. Then you informed us that you decided to change the deal and we began working to meet that one. Then you changed it again. We have no idea if this philosophy is that of your team or simply your leadership but it is difficult to maintain any form of mutually beneficial relationship with a team that regards the treaties it agrees to as little more than frivilous scratchpads of no value. We have honored every agreement with your team since the beginning even when other civs gave us bonus techs and the deals were no longer equal trades. We find it very sad that your team still will not honor this agreement. The Glory of War does not accept your revised agreement. We will accept the agreement sent in my last PM, but now with less money. The Glory of War is not paying Roleplay to sit idle and start revising a contract. Therefore, the amount the Glory of War will pay Roleplay is reduced to 20 gold. If they still have not agreed to do the deal within 2 more turns (when the GoW gets the 1790bc save), this price will be reduced to zero. If we define 'removal' as the warriors starting to move north, then the deal will be acceptable. Of course, the Glory of War will continue to move the warrior north. If you recall, the deal the Glory of War proposes is very beneficial to the Roleplay team. You get 20 gold, horseback riding, and the removal (see aforementioned definition) of the basher and basher jr. For this, you only have to give up writing. If you do not want to trade with the Glory of War, simply say so rather than propose proposterous deals that the Glory of War already rejected. This is the prior agreement: quote: Sent by adaMada, official diplomat to GoW If you will accept what is above, Roleplay will accept offer #3. To refresh everyone's memory, it was: GoW Gives: Horseback riding and warrior removal now and 60 gold upon reception of writing. Roleplay Gives: Writing upon acquisition * Neither team will trade the tech it acquires for fifteen turns after acquisition. And from my reply to this: quote: This deal is accepted by the GoW I quote from your last PM: quote: Sent by Togas, leader of Roleplay There is no prior "agreement" which is why we are attempting to negotiate this one with you I believe that if you said, "If you will accept what is above, Roleplay will accept offer #3", and the Glory of War accepted it, then it is a "prior agreement". It is the Glory of War's belief that we had a deal. Your claim that we did not have a prior agreement is a disgrace. The offer we have outlined in this message is final. The Roleplay team has been playing this game in a dishonorable fashion and the Glory of War plans on advertising this fact to all other teams unless the deal is accepted immediately. Thank you, Panzer32, Foreign Affairs Consul for the Glory of War; Along with the rest of the Glory of War team.

	07-02-2003 07:09									#34
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Last one: From Togas, 6 February 2003

quote: Panzer32, adaMada has posted your response to our forum. I'm not going to waste my time commending on your continuing insults and threats and make this very clear, because your team doesn't seem to care to understand what MY position is, and your team continue to believe that by misquoting my ambassador and playing word games you can force me to change MY position on this deal. I, as leader of Spain, am not giving you ANYTHING until your warriors are OUT OF SPAIN, period. That was always our position, when we talk about "removal" we clearly mean "removed from Spain." We do not mean, "moving north 1 tile" as you incorrectly seem to believe. I am not going to take "your word" that you will remove them after the deal is done. I have zero trust that you will follow through. I want to see them OUT before I give you anything. If you want writing, you will leave Spain by moving north to the tile I clearly specified. It's simple and it's clear. You "claim" that you are removing your warrior so there should be no issue with this arrangement. Yet you are making an issue because you want writing NOW. I'm sorry, but I'm not that trusting, especially not with the way you continue to insult myself, my ambassador, and my team. You're not going to get it now. If you remove your warrior and pay us the amount you promised, you will get Writing. If not, you won't. It's that simple. I can't make it anymore simple than that. If you choose to "go public" with this whole stupid affair know that I will also "go public" and devulge all of your bitter quotes and threats and lies and broken promises. Should you doctor our PMs to you, we will, in return, doctor your PMs to us. Should you outright lie about our role in this affair, we will lie in return. There is nothing that you can threaten us with that we cannot do in return to you. Mutually assured destruction. If you want it, we'll play that game. I'm more than willing. You know that I have people on my team who are VERY willing to do so. But if you want writing, quit sending threatening and insulting letters to my ambassador, move your warrior north a few more tiles, then trade us 60g for writing like you agreed. That is, if you really want writing. I'm starting to doubt that you do. --Togas, Ruler of Spain.

These are all the PMs I have that are to or from the Roleplay team.

	07-02-2003 17:50									#35
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Gentlemen,

I have read the above, and I am afraid I don’t see how we can post anything on the main board. RP have been very successful in delaying, and dragging out negotiations, right to the point where we have assumed a deal has been made....but really we have no formal written offer/acceptance for anything.

Perhaps our impatience has gotten the better of us. We thought we had a deal...but really we didn’t. We cannot post anything on the board with this uncertainty.


Here are what I consider as possible solutions.

1. We take a hard line approach.
Diplomatic relations are cut off, and we get writing from some other source or study it ourselves. Anything they send us is ignored, unless there is a clear benefit to us by replying. In time, tempers will cool, and we can try again.
Or just attack and kill them

2. We try again.
The best way to approach this, is with new personnel. If we offer up a new member as their contact, it can sometimes be seen as a fresh beginning. Negotiations can restart...wounds healed.
I think it obvious that they are NOT going to trade with us while we continue this arguing. We need to offer a fresh face.

Although I loath to offer myself, I am willing to try. My time-zone sucks, so there will be no chats. Everything will be done by email & PM's...which may be a good thing as they like to drag things out themselves.

We need someone who is not going to get emotional and bite back. I am an accountant, and had my emotions lobotomized in my first year of Uni

Panzer / GF ... you guys have been doing a good job, but it reads as though Togas just does not want to deal with you guys anymore.

If anyone else wants the job...I am more than happy to let them have it. My wife would surely prefer someone else...I spend way too much time in front of the PC already.


I am open to suggestions.

Regs

	07-02-2003 18:53									#36
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Hey... if you want war with RP, let me do it. We'll be fighting in no time!

	07-02-2003 19:49									#37
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Hot_Enamel, you might want to check with Panzer32 and see if that is possible, I would be willing to try a new face, although Togas seems to be completely irrational.

donegeal, after we get Writing you can do whatever you want to them.

I plan on moving the warrior north of Saratoga and then seeing if they are going to fulfill the treaty. If not the warrior is going to ATTACK SARATOGA.

	07-02-2003 20:02									#38
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Question, is their a chance that rp has already decided to attack us. If so we need to consider that we take all lux and keep going. Remember he who waits for the sword to fall looses his head. Roleplay does have several people who have no aversion of war. Perhaps they have decided to destroy us before we can become strong and build our forces. To be honest it is what I would do in their postion. They think we think they will be building temples and graneries while they could actually be building horsemen,sword or archers. They can always build the other stuff later, to them it could be a small price to pay for destroying us.
Aggie

Last edited by Aggie on 07-02-2003 at 20:19

	08-02-2003 02:03									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie Question, is their a chance that rp has already decided to attack us. If so we need to consider that we take all lux and keep going. Remember he who waits for the sword to fall looses his head. Roleplay does have several people who have no aversion of war. Perhaps they have decided to destroy us before we can become strong and build our forces. To be honest it is what I would do in their postion. They think we think they will be building temples and graneries while they could actually be building horsemen,sword or archers. They can always build the other stuff later, to them it could be a small price to pay for destroying us. Aggie

I agree, which is why I am leaning towards building up to a continental Alliance with ND to split the continent among our two civs.

	08-02-2003 02:15									#40
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I do agree if we don't get a decent treaty, that whatever troops we already have in position should be used to attack now, but a total victory will probably have to wait, because we're too far away.

It sure would be nice to destroy RP, but it looks like we have to cut our losses right now. They're too far away. If we send our troops there now, we fatally weaken ourselves against our neighbors, in a war that's hard to win. The only rational choices we have in warfare are Lux and ND. After we're done with lux, we can attack finish off RP.In a 2 on 2 war, we have an advantage because we can build quick barracks, build mines fast, and RP is far away.

It seems best to opportunistically attack RP, then eliminate Lux, then finish off RP .

Last edited by realpolitic on 08-02-2003 at 02:46