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GhengisFarb
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I want my HAMBURGERS!!
May 2002
time: 23:25
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This thread is for the posting of COMPLETE and EXACT communications from Roleplay only to see if can build a convincing case against them in the public forum.
Email from Togas on December 15:
quote:
Jason (Ghengis) 
I sent Ada to work on this trade and I'm glad that your nation is
behind this
idea. We both have 2 techs that can be traded with the other, however,
we're not
entirely sold on Masonry because everyone else who we've been in PM
contact with
has it, and we anticipate paying a few token gold for it in trade from
the first
civ we meet.
However, if it turns out that it's your civ that we meet first, I think
we'd
happily do a 2 for 2 tech trade deal if you can give us the location
(how to
find, mini box, whatever) of another civ with whom we can trade, of if
you can
throw in a common tech that you guys have purchased ... something like
Pottery.
If we agree to this deal and our nation meets another civ first, I
would be
willing to substitute Masonry for something else when we meet -- like
additional
civ locations or gold. If you give us gold we'd only give it right
back to you
later on when we hire you guys. 
I have authorized this agreement to be made between our nations in the
hope of
continued good will and good relations between us. I hope that our
nations can
come into contact soon.
--Togas
--- Jason Farber wrote:
> Panzar32 and adaMada are supposedly negotiating a deal
> where we agree to trade you Warrior Code and Masonry
> for Alphabet and Ceremonial Burial and each of trades
> our minimaps (the little blach ones in the lower left
> corner) so we can can send warriors to meet in the
> middle and establish contact.
>
> I'm talking up the trade in our forum, if it sounds
> good to you could you talk it up on your side?
>
> If we meet any other civs in the meantime we should
> trade them for the techs they have other than the two
> we are planning to trade so we can get more techs.
>
> FYI we have info on other civs and their locations to
> trade you in order to sweeten the deal.
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Last edited by GhengisFarb on 07-02-2003 at 04:25
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GhengisFarb
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I want my HAMBURGERS!!
May 2002
time: 23:25
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Originally, these emails were to be dialogue between Togas and myself to provide groundwork for diplomatic agreement between out two teams so that trade deals could be worked out faster and often I did not have time to post a discussion in our forum before I sent it off which is why many of them state something to the effect of "not official" or "do not tell the rest of the team" as they weren't approved of by the team and I didn't want him replying "we agree to this deal" to Panzer32 and Panzer32 feeling I was undermining his authority and not having a clue what they were referring to.
Then as Togas became more and more untrustworthy I began posting them in the forum.
Email from Togas on December 22:
quote:
Ghengis,
Our analysis indicates that there should be around 2 civs between us,
or 2 civs
that are closer to us than you. Of course, it's really just a guess
until we
meet more civs. As you can see, one of our scouts are headed our way,
would you
guys like to move south-east and try to meet us half way?
If we do have civs between us, and I expect that we do, I think we
definately
should work together to narrow the competition down a bit. My team is
a little
gunshy when it comes with working with GoW, but since we're not a
democracy ...
You get the idea. With enough incentives and a few cracks of the
whip,
anything is possible.
Anyhow, as one player to another, I'd like to keep discussing a
possible alliance
later on as the map shapes up and as we find a few more civs. And if
you guys do
get serious about a possible "sandwich" maneuver, contact adaMada and
we'll work
out something formal. He's on top of things for me and does a pretty
good job.
--Togas
> We contacted the Demogyptians several turns ago and
> they have contacted a civ other than us.
>
> If they are between us do we want to coordinate some
> sort of sandwich exercise to a squish them between us?
>
> (This is non-diplomatic so don't mention this to our
> two ambassadors.)
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GhengisFarb
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I want my HAMBURGERS!!
May 2002
time: 23:25
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Email from Togas on January 4:
quote:
Jason,
You need to talk to your people to see what they're telling us before
you go off
the handle. I wrote you after Panzer sent a message to adaMada stating
that you
just received one of the techs we were going to trade you, Bronze
Working, and
that the deal would have to be redone.
He informed us that "It seems like our warriors are very close together
now, but
our previous tech deal is obselete; therefore I would like to get a new
meeting
deal together with you."
adaMada posted his message to my forum and asked me what we should do
now.
As you should know, we had planned to give your team Alphabet AND
Bronze Working
for Wheel and Warrior Code. However, since your team aquired Bronze
working, the
deal would, in his words, have to be redone.
We turned down a deal with Lux for the same techs we had agreed to
trade to you.
We have a contact with them and could have made such a deal at any time
this
week, but chose not to. You can understand why this would upset me.
You can
understand why I immediately wrote to you.
I recontacted Lux this evening to see if they would reconsider their
offer to us.
Trip informed me that they will. However, I made it perfectly clear
to him that
I would only take their offer IF things could not be worked out with
your team.
Therefore, you have a decision to make. Make ammends for this mistake
... I'm
sure it wasn't intentional. I'm sure it's one of those situations
where one hand
isn't watching the other. Get us back to the bargaining table and make
a promise
that your team can keep. Or, tell us to f*ck off and we'll go trade
Warrior Code
and Wheel for Alphabet to Lux Invicta.
Either way we get the techs we need. However, only you or Lux gets
Alphabet from
us. I don't care either way, but I made a deal with your team and when
I make a
promise I keep it. YOUR team has priority here and I had ordered that
we trade
with your people first and formost, but I will change those plans if
your team
would rather take a more opportunistic approach to trade deals.
Lastly, explain to me how your team operates. Who's in charge and how
are these
decisions made? If you make a deal with me, how do I know that your
team will
follow through with it? If Panzer makes a deal, how do we know that
it's
official or not? In the future, how will we know who speaks for your
team and
who's word we can rely on if a simple incident like this can occur?
Post this message to your people so they can fully understand my
position.
--Togas
--- Jason Farber wrote:
> This is to inform you that I have recommended to our
> team that trading you The Wheel and Warrior Code for
> Alphabet is no longer acceptable in my opinion. We
> were trying to insure that our two teams would get
> every tech possible technology but your completely
> aggressive attacks in private and public against any
> team that does not willingly submit to be your lackey
> has made it clear that NO TEAM can coexist with yours.
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Last edited by GhengisFarb on 07-02-2003 at 04:03
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GhengisFarb
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I want my HAMBURGERS!!
May 2002
time: 23:25
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Email from Togas on January 4:
quote:
Jason,
Thank you for clearing up the situation with your command structure.
Panzer is
"official" but you are his boss. That's similar to how my team is run:
adaMada
speaks for me, officially, but I could replace him or give him
instructions on
how to handle a situation.
I understand why you would be so frustrated by this turn of events. I
think we
both are for the same reason: Each of us has been pushing our team to
reluctantly move closer together, and each of us has gone to great
lengths to
achieve contact. I have a great many of the "GoW cannot be trusted"
crowd in my
ranks, and you probably have something of the same in yours for us.
When this
issue was posted it caused quite an uproar that, personally, affected
me because
of the trouble I had gone through to ensure that our deal with your
team would
take place.
If making a deal and sticking to is didn't matter much to me, I
wouldn't have
been angry about this at all.
I sent you that direct quote from Panzer's email. I don't think he was
doing any
harm, but I do think that it's obvious that there was some
miscommunication in
your ranks. He can send you a copy from his saved message file, or I
can send
you a copy, whatever you prefer.
The following timeline needs to be cleared up:
> We make tech trade deal for 3 techs UNLESS we aquire
> them before we meet.
>
> You acquire one of the 3 techs.
> We aquire one of the 3 techs.
>
> We ammend the deal to be 2 techs for 2 techs.
>
> Lux gifts us Bronzeworking to encourage us to befriend
> them and not side with ND.
>
> Panzer32 informs adaMada that our tech deal is off.
>
> Togas makes statements in the Apoly chat room that we
> violated on our aggrements and are not to be trusted.
Why don't you go look at the logs and you'll see that this is clearly
not true.
I don't have to comment any further, as the logs will clear this matter
up. I
went in and told Trip that your team was trying to change the deal,
then told him
we may have a better deal than the one we had previous arranged if our
deal with
you guys fell through.
> Togas informs me that I am dishonest and Roleplay no
> longer wants to deal with us.
This is untrue, but it's rather silly to argue about someone else's
perceptions.
All you need to know is that if we no longer wanted to deal with you, I
wouldn't
be writing this email.
> I inform Togas that I have no idea what he is talking
> about.
>
> I find out that we are being slandered as backstabbers
> and have broken our agreements.
Oh really? I'd like to see where anyone said anything like that. You
know full
well how angry I was, but you'll note when you review the logs that I
never made
any statements like that. I expressed my frustrations about your team
wanting to
change the deal, but never went any further than that.
> I inform my team that I don't feel it is wise to deal
> with a team that slanders us publicly and inform
> Togas, Dejon, and Arnelos of my new position.
>
> Togas emails me that Panzer32 told adaMada that the
> tech deal is off.
AND I sent you the text of his message to us, so that you could
understand what
made us so frustrated.
> I posted the situation in our forum and requested a
> statement from Panzer32 as to what he informed you and
> why he may/may not have changed the deal without team
> authorization.
>
> I emailed Togas, Dejon, and Arnelos this overview.
Frankly, I don't know why you decided to email Dejon & Arnelos this
"overview."
Perhaps you're trying to inspire a coup?
Blah, blah, blah. Enough of all of this bitterness. There's two
things I need
to ask:
1) Email is personal communications between you and me, not official
team stuff.
PMs are for official team business, and I'm not all that happy you
posted my
first email to your team. But I'm not going to sweat this, it's not a
big enough
issue to be annoyed about. In the future, let's keep our PERSONAL
correspondence
out of official game matters. I wrote you because you're the guy on
GoW that I
have the closest relationship to, and I wanted to express my
frustrations at what
I thought was a bigger issue than (obviously) it turned out to be.
Anyhow, let's
not quote personal emails in each other's private forums, alright?
2) Are we going to make a bigger deal of this than we should? I
received another
PM from Panzer that cleared up the whole thing -- you guys got Bronze
as a gift.
I wish I'd known that yesterday, but it wasn't communicated to me. If
it was, no
big deal. No one could turn down a tech gift. I'd completely
understand
that.
Can you understand why I'd say, knowing only what I knew yesterday,
that your
team wanted to change the deal on us? And if you look back at the
logs, you'll
see that I said nothing else derogatory about your team, when I was
certainly
angry enough to do so. So can we quite overreacting and move on?
What do you
think?
I think that's enough. I need to return to my forums and let everyone
know that
I've cleared this matter up. I've already posted Panzer's PM to my
team, and I
think that dispells the hype. Your guy does a pretty good job. You
don't need
to replace him. Maybe next time just add in a little extra information
so that
we don't get the wrong idea (you know, like my thinking you guys made a
trade
deal with ND instead of us...).
--Togas
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GhengisFarb
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I want my HAMBURGERS!!
May 2002
time: 23:25
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Email from Arnelos on January 20:
quote:
> Here's the save.
>
> I am suprised that you chose to break the tech trade
> agreement we had made to trade Horseback Riding for
> Writing but I would rather find out your team is
> untrustworthy now than later.
GF,
This whole situation is positively silly. I'll grant that Togas is
being just as silly as we thought you were being (a topic of discussion on
our boards right now), but you know as well as I do (or I think) that
the geographic placement of the various civs/teams makes a potential
strategic partnership between GoW and RP extremely valuable... it would be
simply inane to toss that out the door. We'd all have to be out of our
minds (which might not be far from the truth, but that's beside the
point ).
From Panzer's latest PM and what E_T just posted, it sounds like part
of this was just miscomunication. Apparently, some on the team were
puzzled that you would be as pissed off as you were about a deal that
wasn't even ironed out yet. That's apparently because you had the
impression that the deal WAS ironed out. I honestly don't know what happened
there because I haven't been paying any attention to the RP Team in
weeks until the past few days (being President in the C3DG had its price,
but that's gone now  ). I hope we can just overlook the screw-up and
iron out a deal we can both live with and is realistic with the tech
situation as we now know it.
The other half of the problem, I'll grant you, is that Togas went
through the roof when he found your warrior south of the jungle. I gather
that we're planning to eventually give you guys our map ANYWAYS, so I
think the issue is strictly security (don't want your warrior loitering
around where our next settler might be headed).
We can always just make a deal that includes all of these things as
provisions (and haggle the deal until both sides find it acceptable, if
need be).
FYI: All of this is very unofficial, as I'm no longer FAM-equivalent
(though with my new free time, I might take the job back... we'll see)
and I haven't been looking at specifics for the PTW game in a while. I'm
just getting back into the PTW game and I'm responding to your e-mail
from the last save (since such a taunting e-mail deserves at least SOME
response ;p ).
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That's the complete and unabridged dialogue between me and Roleplay
Admittingly, my view of their actions and honor is probably off a bit due to my own concepts of what they were telling me, so it may be they have been completely honest in their dealings with us from the beginning.
Last edited by GhengisFarb on 07-02-2003 at 04:23
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Panzer32
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Queens University, Kingston, Ontario
Oct 2002
time: 00:25
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Communications FROM Roleplay, or communications to and from Roleplay?
I think to and from is vital to make our case, so I will be posting both.
All of these messages are from my PM box. I don't think I deleted any important messages, but there is a small chance I might have. I don't think so, though.
one large exhibit would be the GoW-Roleplay chat log.
starting exhibition:
From adaMada, 30 December 2002. First PM dealing with Roleplay I have on archive.
quote:
PTW: Might our scouts meet?
Panzer,
Greetings to my counterpart from GoW. I trust that you are well, and that your team is prosperous?
As you have probably guessed we would, we have made contact with Neu Dem. A strong segment of our population has been pushing hard for making a tech trade with them, as we have already made contact and have several techs that interest us. Luckily, our great leader Togas does not share the strange distrust of your people that has infected some influential minority of our team. Though the agreement we made allowed for a change in deal if we encountered another civilization, Togas has decided to attempt to make the original deal we discussed. As such, we would ask that we commence plans for our scouts to meet between our two great nations as we had once discussed, that we can trade with you rather than helping ND any more than is necessary for our welfare. We already have a scout ready to move up the coastline, west of the ND capital to meet you.
Please let me know if you will consent to sending a scout to meet with us. Though my lord is very wise and I trust he will make the right decision, I fear internal pressures if we find ourselves waiting too long. I apologize for the abruptness of this communiqué, but I myself have only recently been given instructions, and wanted to begin discussion as soon as is possible.
-- adaMada
Togas' Ambassador to GoW
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Panzer32
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Queens University, Kingston, Ontario
Oct 2002
time: 00:25
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Reply sent by Panzer32 on December 30, 2002:
quote:
Thank you for your message. I will try and convince Ghengis Farb to send a warrior towards your territory. Unfortunatly, We will have to discuss a new possible tech deal because we have aquired ceremonial burial. I hope we can get together a good deal soon, which I hope will encourage friendship between our two great nations. I also hope that we can include a nonagression pact within a future deal so we can live together peacefully. Thank you. |
Reply by adaMada on 30 December 2002
quote:
Thank you for your reply. I have informed my team, and asked for discussion on what new deal we can sign. Please let us know when Ghengis has made his decision, and if he agrees, inform him that our warrior will be coming up the coastline to the west of ND's capital.
I'll get back to you on what deal we'd be interested in as soon as I am able.
-- adaMada |
Another Reply to the same message sent by adaMada on 31st December 2002.
quote:
Panzer,
I'm sorry to report that Pro-ND forces in my government have forced through a deal where we acquire masonry from them. Having said that, Togas has asked me to inform you that he's still very interested in a trade. We'd propose the same basic deal as before: nonagression pact for fifty turns after we meet and two for two tech exchange, with the tech exchange changed to Alphabet and Bronze Working from us for the Wheel and Warrior Code from you. I urge you to accept this deal and wait for us to meet (which should be very soon, as I am told our advance scouts grow closer with each passing day), as I believe it's in both of our best interests to avoid strengthening Neu Dem's tech lead much more. Though some of the members of my government are foolish in this regard, we should still try to trade with each other where we can rather than helping Neu Dem, who is a major danger to the both of us.
Please let me know what your government thinks of the proposal.
-- adaMada
Togas' Ambassador to Glory of War |
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Panzer32
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Queens University, Kingston, Ontario
Oct 2002
time: 00:25
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Reply to email by Togas to GF (look up, its there) by Panzer32 on 4 January 2003:
quote:
Greeting Togas, ruler of the Roleplay team. What I have to reply to is this email you sent to Ghengis Farb. I am sending this to adaMada as well.
quote:
What the hell?! Don't you guys have any patience?
You'd rather make a deal with ND than with us?
We just wasted 5+ turns of TWO of our scouts to try to urgently contact you guys, and we told Lux that we had aquired Warrior Code from you, so we didn't need it from them. Hell, we TURNED DOWN other nations to trade with you guys only to discover that your people don't have the same respect for agreements with us as you just got Bronze working and are now trying to tell adaMada that the deal has to be changed!
And all this time you've been sending us emails confirming that the "deal was still on", leading us on, so all the while we held to the deal and didn't buy either tech from anyone else because we agreed we would buy it from you.
This is a very dishonorable way for a team to act, especially when you expect us to trust that you'll stick to your agrements. In the future, we will think twice before relying on the frail promises of your wishy-washy team.
This is a very dishonorable way for a team to act, especially when you expect us to trust that you'll stick to your agrements. In the future, we will think twice before relying on the frail promises of your wishy-washy team.
--Togas
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Well, for one, you seem determined that we cheated you by trading Lux Invicta. We traded The Wheel and Warrior Code for Bronzeworking and Pottery. Now, our team can still give you the Wheel and Warrior code, and you can still give us alphabet. Therefore, I propose we do exactly the same trade that we had agreed upon earlier - You give us Alphabet, we give you the Wheel and Warrior Code, and we have a 50 turn nonagression pact. Think of this advantageous deal as compensation for not trading with other teams while coming to meet us. I believe our warriors are extremely close to meeting, so we will hopefully have this cleared up very soon.
This brings up another point: In the original agreement, there was a 'clause' stating that we would renegotiate the deal if we met and/or traded with another team. I fail to see which part of this the Glory of War actually broke. Do not mistake the above deal I am giving you as an apology from the Glory of War team, it is simply a sort of compensation for misunderstanding our contract.
I also understand that you said in the public chat room: "Togas to Trip -> We may have a better deal for you - GOW is trying to change their deal" What did you say this for? Are you trying to spread lies about us? The Glory of War has done every deal with Lux Invicta it said it would do, the aforementioned tech trade is a public example. Please research your facts before you spread rumours about others.
Are you also afraid we have traded 'behind your backs' with New Demogyptica? The only time we have done this was a while back, before the latest tech trade was agreed upon.
Thank you; I hope that we can clear up some of the misunderstanding between our two teams
Panzer32, Foreign Consul for the Glory of War.
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Another message sent by Panzer32 on 4 January
quote:
I looked over the situation, and think I understand some of what the problem is. Yesterday, I sent this PM to you:
quote:
It seems like our warriors are very close together now, but our previous tech deal is obselete; therefore I would like to get a new meeting deal together with you. It might be good to tell each other what we have, so we can see what can be traded - therefore... and so on
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Now I can understand your point of view and thus your reaction to this PM. I realise now that obselete was a strong word, and should not have used it, since the deal was not really obselete. The Glory of War only obtained one technology that was included in the deal. It sounded like we were cancelling the whole deal, including the nonagression deal. I was simply saying that we needed to adjust the deal again so it fit into both of our team's situations. Therefore I apologise for the severe wording of that PM.
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Panzer32
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Queens University, Kingston, Ontario
Oct 2002
time: 00:25
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From adaMada, 4 January 2003
quote:
Dear Panzer,
I'm sorry to say that I can't reply to this now, as I've got to go out, but considering the sensativity of this topic, I wanted to let you know that I will reply once I get back, and that I'm not ignoring you . I should be back in a few hours, and will have a reply for you and your team then.
-- adaMada |
From Togas
quote:
Panzer,
I think this matter can be put to rest. If your team will trade us Warrior Code and Wheel for Alphabet, then we have no problems at all. I regret that there has been such confusion over this issue.
I got enraged when my ambassador posted to our forum that you aquired Bronze Working from another source and said that the deal would have to be renegotiated, which meant that the deal was basically off. The reason I was angry about this is because I had taken active measures to send people to meet your team ASAP, foregoing their original scouting mission to travel directly to you. I had also had many exchanges with Ghengis Farb where he asked me on several occasions if the deal was on, and even sent us a .jpg showing where your warrior was so that we could both meet.
I was only angry because we had done so much thus far to make this deal and it didn't seem to me that it was as important to you guys as it was to us
Furthermore, Trip had offered us Wheel & Warrior Code in conjunction with several other trades, but we turned him down on Wednesday saying we already had a deal with you guys. Then I had to go back to Trip on Friday, after receiving your PM, to see if he would reoffer the deal to us.
quote:
I also understand that you said in the public chat room: "Togas to Trip -> We may have a better deal for you - GOW is trying to change their deal" What did you say this for? Are you trying to spread lies about us? The Glory of War has done every deal with Lux Invicta it said it would do, the aforementioned tech trade is a public example. Please research your facts before you spread rumours about others. |
I said this, as this is what was communicated to me by your PM. You told adaMada that our previous deal was obsolite and that you'd like to make a new deal. Did you not say this?
Regardless, I understand that if you received Bronze Working as a gift, you could not refuse it. If I had been made aware of that situation earlier, I would not have been so frustrated by this turn of events. Furthermore, if I had been made aware by your first PM that you were willing to offer Wheel and Warrior Code for Alphabet, I certainly would not have protested. Such a deal is acceptable to me and my people.
I apologize that this misunderstanding inflamed both your people and mine, and I hope that in the future we can keep each other more informed so that misunderstandings like these will not happen again.
--Togas
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Reply from adaMada on 4 January 2003
quote:
Panzer,
Indeed, you've fingered the problem (and I apologize for being out of contact for so long; it's been a busy two days in real life). Our team was (understandably) frustrated; to us, it seemed that you'd made another trade and were changing the deal again. Though this was allowed by our original deal, it was frustrating for our team, having turned down several other deals considering the proximity of our warrior. I take a good deal of responsibility for the misunderstanding, considering that we did agree that the deal could change if either team aquired the techs from another team at the start of the game. We never discussed that clause again, and I should have come back and asked for a change when we started turning down other deals in anticipation of meeting you.
Either way, I'm glad to see that our teams are well on the way of putting this behind us. I'll send several other PMs to concerned parties tonight
-- adaMada |
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Panzer32
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Queens University, Kingston, Ontario
Oct 2002
time: 00:25
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To Togas from Panzer32 on 4 January 2003
quote:
I thank you for your reply, and am glad that this could be cleared up quickly. I'm sorry my wording was sort of off in my PM: "You told adaMada that our previous deal was obsolite and that you'd like to make a new deal. Did you not say this?" Yes I did say this, and I realise that obselete was sort of the wrong word. I was thinking that either most of the deal could be left intact, and you give us something other than bronze working, or we could go ahead and do the deal as we had originally planned, only without you giving us Bronze working. It now appears that this is what we will settle on. Also, I now understand why you said what you said to Trip in the chat room (BTW - you might want to be more careful about using the public chat room to communicate: one of the GoW members was there).
So there you go then; let us continue to be friends and it will go well with us in the future.
BTW: let both of our teams record the date we meet, so we can calculate which 50 turns the nonagression pact will last, so that we know which turn to start renegotiations.
Thank You;
Panzer32, Foreign Consul for the Glory of War PTW democracy game team. |
From adaMada on 6 January 2003
quote:
My esteemed comrade from Glory of War,
It's just occurred to me that, several days ago, you asked us for our tech list, and I never provided you with it. The oversight was purely mine, as my team had always intended to send it to you. I do apologize, and hope you can forgive the lapse.
Our current list of techs:
* Alphabet
* Ceremonial Burial
* Bronze Working
* Masonry
* Pottery
* Wheel
* Warrior Code
I apologize again, and hope that we can move on with good relations. We look forward to trading with you more as we both continue to move up through the tech trade, and let me send my own personal best wishes to both yourself and your esteemed leader, Ghengis Farb.
-- adaMada |
Reply from Panzer32 on 7 January 2003
quote:
Thanks, I just wanted to see if there was any tech deal that we might be missing somewhere  |
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Panzer32
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Queens University, Kingston, Ontario
Oct 2002
time: 00:25
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From adaMada on 15 January 2003
quote:
Dear Panzer,
How do things bode in the fruitful lands of GoW? It’s been far too long since our nations have conversed at any length, and it is a pity that we’ve lacked an opportunity to sit around the bargaining table as friends in the past weeks.
I’ve been informed by Togas, our Great and Illustrious Depot, that representatives from Our Explorer’s Guild have made contact with your warrior group as you’ve left the jungle. Our explorers greet your warrior group, and are especially reverent to be in the presence of such masters of war, but we regret to inform you that the small valley your troops now occupy is part of the Spanish homeland. We consider the region from south of the jungle to the western ocean to be our home. Indeed, our exploration guild has taken the mission of protecting our boarder upon itself, and was keeping watch over our homes and families along our border when they had the pleasure of meeting your troops.
I’ve been asked to inform you that you’re welcome to stay and feast with us tonight, as España is proud to call Glory of War a friend. Indeed, I believe our Depot recently saw it fit to engrave a statement of our friendship in gold and deliver it to you as a gift, wise and great as he is. In spite of this magnificent friendship, however, we cannot allow your warrior group any further into España. It is not only a matter of pride to the Spanish people and their Depot, but we are also weary of allowing armed troops through the lands of our children, as we fear for their safety in the presence of clubs – children have the most wretched tendency to place their hands upon places they don’t belong. Indeed, Togas has decreed that no foreign warrior groups or scouts may travel through Spain else they wish to endure the wraith of the Spanish Armies, and no exceptions can be made in this matter, even for such valued and respected friends.
We understand and admire your desire to learn of our lands and geography, and would suggest that we may soon be able to offer alternatives rather than sending scouts to report. As you are doubtlessly aware, both of our respective scholars have been mumbling about some newfangled technology of ‘mapmaking’ for some time, which would allow us to give you the same details you would learn for yourself were your warriors permitted to precede. Once our scholars have broken the mysteries of this knowledge, our ‘map’ could be transported far and wide, and we would be happy to exchange maps with you at that time.
If you wish, we will happily supply your warrior group with fresh water and supplies for their trip back through the jungle. We are indeed sorry that we cannot permit them any further into Spanish land at this time, and we hope that we will eventually see the day where all children can frolic comfortably, with the knowledge that warriors of all clans will take it upon their clubs to protect them and do them no harm. We hope that you understand our situation.
Best wishes from Iberia,
adaMada
Togas’ Ambassador to Glory of War
NOTE: I've sent this to GhengisFarb as well, as I was asked to make contact about the matter as soon as possible, and I wanted to ensure that the message reach your team as soon as is possible, considering the quick turn around of most turns in these times.
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From Panzer32 to adaMada on 16 January 2003
quote:
I see you are online right now. If you get this soon, please go to apolyton chat. We can talk this through there. Thanks. If not, then I will send an official reply soon. |
From adaMada on 16 January 2003
quote:
Panzer,
Will head in there now, though I don't know how long I'll be able to stay.
-- adaMada |
From adaMada on 16 January 2003
quote:
Looks like I just missed you :-\. Sorry .
-- adaMada
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From Panzer32 on 16 January 2003
quote:
(paraphrasing)
quote:
Dear Panzer,
You are encroaching on Roleplay's territory. We value you as a friend, but do not want you neer to us. Would you like to trade maps later?
Best wishes from Iberia,
adaMada
Togas’ Ambassador to Glory of War
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adaMada:
I thank you for warning us we were getting close to your lands. I am glad we did not just stumble upon Madrid and you thought we were going to take it. We have a nonagression pact, remember?
I hope you will allow us to either stay where they are or move back for the time being. As much as I hope we can resolve this soon, I realise it might take one or two turns to sort it out. Our team is currently discussing one or two agreements that I hope would be satisfactory to both teams.
One question I ask of the Roleplay team, is approximatly how big is this territory you have set aside for yourselves? The Glory of War understands that you want room to expand, but does not think teams should claim territory unnecisarily. How many resources does this territory have in it? I think these questions are fair, and if the Glory of War had any such territorial claims, we would be happy to answer them.
Thank you for your time;
Panzer32,
Foreign Affairs Consul for the Glory of War
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Panzer32
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Queens University, Kingston, Ontario
Oct 2002
time: 00:25
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From adaMada
quote:
Panzer,
I've got a full response for you on the warrior issue that will be sent a bit later tonight. In the meanwhile, if we happen to be around at the same time, it wouldn't be a bad idea to meet up for a quick chat in the poly IRC room, that we can solve this issue ASAP and move on with the rest of the game .
-- adaMada
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From Panzer32 on 17 January 2003
quote:
Yes, it might work, but our team has not yet authorized me to say much, or even developed much since our last PM exchange. |
From adaMada on 17 January 2003
quote:
Fair enough -- I don't have much to say beyond my reply-in-the-works either -- but we could at least come to understand each other's positions a bit better that way...
Anyway, I'll send the full diplomatic response later tonight. If you'd like to chat before then, just shoot me a PM, and I'll do my best to be there.
-- adaMada |
From Panzer32, 19 January 2003
quote:
adaMada,
I am finally officially replying to the PM about Roleplay's territorial claim. The Glory of War understands the reason Roleplay would want to claim their own territory to create room for their expansion. We also understand that small territorial claims are necessary, and completly within the spirit of the game. There are several things at this juncture that I think are needed to continue good relations between our two teams:
1. We need to trade maps. We need to know exactly where we are located, and especially where your territorial claim is. We need this information because if we don't have it, there is no guarantee for us that we are moving our warrior out of your territory. We would like to move around your territory, and it would make it much easier for us to have directions. Also, on the flip side, it would be beneficial for your team to understand the geography of the northern part of the continent. We will supply our map in .jpg format if you do the same, with your territorial claim imposed on it. As a clause to this agreement, the .jpgs will not be shown to other teams.
2. We need to develop trust for each other. Unfortunatly, this is impossible when the Roleplay team breaks previously agreed upon deals. This was the case when the roleplay team decided not to trade the Glory of War writing for horseback riding. Our team is dissapointed that this deal got cancelled by your team. Our dissapointment has evolved slowly into a general distrust of your team. We will be forever wary of the Roleplay team in the future, as they have not proven they can be trusted. I can do nothing now but warn you that the consequences could be very grave indeed if you decide to break an agreement with the Glory of War again.
3. We need to acknowledge each other's territory. The Roleplay team has already told us of their territorial claim. With the trading of jpg maps, the Glory of War will be able to see the exact extent of this claim. I quote from adaMada's official response to my question "How large is Roleplay's territorial claim?": "At its widest points, it is about seven spaces wide and four deep". This would mean the territory is no larger than 56 tiles (4*7 twice). If this is true (and the .jpg map can prove this), the Glory of War will support your territorial claim and not enter this zone. As a reciprocal agreement, the Glory of War requests that you do not enter the zone to the north of Neu Demogyptica and Lux Invicta, where the Glory of War is located. I can mark this zone on the .jpg map when we trade also. On the other hand, and your territory is more than 56 tiles large, the Roleplay team has lied to the Glory of War yet again. All of the above in point #3 will be null and void. The Glory of War will not support any current territorial claim by Roleplay, and will be extremely wary of one made in the future.
Thank you for your time, adaMada. I hope you will take these points seriously.
Panzer32,
Consul of Foreign affairs for the Glory of War PTW democracy game
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Panzer32
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Queens University, Kingston, Ontario
Oct 2002
time: 00:25
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From adaMada on 19 January 2003 (sorry- this one was written before my big one (last post))
quote:
Panzer,
I apologize for the late reply -- it has indeed been a busy day, with much discussion on my team about how to respondto this recent set of events. There are obviously many people with different feelings on the issue, and it has (as such) generated a great deal of discussion about how to best respond to this chain of events, even within my own team .
Firstly, in regards to your question about how big the territory in question is. El Valle De Los Torros has jungle to the north, is surrounded by mountains on two sides, and has the sea at its west. It is literally the heartland of España. At its widest points, it is about seven spaces wide and four deep. At our current rate, we'll have it mostly settled within twenty turns, and another ten after that our settlement should be complete. That should give you a rough feeling for the size of the land -- if there is any other information you desire, please let me know.
It is the land we have. I understand your concern -- how do you know that we are not portioning off half of the map for ourselves? -- but I tell you, it is not the case. This is the little land available to us, and we must protect it, not out of greed, but because it is our home. As we've said, we're happy to trade maps with you as soon as the technology is available, and you can see that we speak the truth -- it is not merely some land that we might choose to settle in the future, but it is indeed the land that we are settling now, and shall be done settling soon in the future.
It is not that we trust you any less than we trust any other in this matter. We have asked both ND and Lux to do the same, and have gone as far as to sign some agreements to this matter. To quote from our private forums:
quote:
Originally posted by ruby_maser
El Valle de los Toros represents the most arable land in the vicinity of the Spanish kingdom and, as so, also represents the most viable option for settlement in the near future. Scouting in the valley constitutes a knowledge of our homeland's defenses that we would prefer to avoid. We have made no such scouting expedition north of the jungle for that very reason and have also come to an understanding with Lux Invicta and Neu Demogyptica concerning this issue. As such, we would ask that you join us in friendship and respect and know that we shall extend you and your lands the same courtesy. |
As we've said, we have been happy to avoid scouting your territory until you're prepared for it to be shown, and would gladly trade maps as soon as it's possible. If it would make your people more at ease with the situation, we'd be happy to sign a mutual agreement with you in this regard. We have discovered Iron Working in the recent past -- once we've resolved this larger issue of territory, we can see what trades are available to us (I fear that it may already be too late for a trade with Iron (though I can't say for sure), but we should at least move on to open up avenues for future trades). The sooner we can resolve this, the better, as it's holding up our diplomatic options.
It is my understanding that our leaders have had some (rather unfruitful) discussions on this matter. I ask that we, in the name of diplomacy and peace, find some way to put these conflicts behind us. On my team, there is a good deal of mixed feelings on this issue, as I'm sure there are on yours. We, as Ambassadors from our respective groups, need to act now to establish a solid diplomatic relationship for the future.
Thanks again.
-- adaMada
Togas' Ambassador to Glory of War
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From adaMada on 23 January 2003
quote:
Panzer,
I apologize to you and your team for the late reply; it’s taken a day or two for me to sort everything out.
** NOTE: I've had to snip out all but the first few words of each paragraph of your message to make the PM within size limits, but each reply addresses the full text **
quote:
There are several things at this juncture that I think are needed to continue good relations between our two teams: |
Obviously, good relations between our two teams are most important to us. We want this behind us as much as you do – any other deals are impossible while this hangs over our heads. As soon as this is behind us – with both teams having a mutual understanding and your warrior safely away from our villages and children – we can begin to work together again. Partnership between our teams can only benefit, and strife can only harm. We must understand each other now so we can reap the full benefits of cooperation.
quote:
1. We need to trade maps. |
I'm afraid that my team has decided that .jpg trades (other than minimaps) are against the spirit of the game. Though I tried to convince them, they feel that minimap trades were agreed upon by all the teams as a way to speed the game up, and that the game is too close to mapmaking for full screen jpg trades to be an acceptable alternative. I'm very sorry, but it's been put to a vote, and there's little I can do about it unless the team decides otherwise. As soon as we have mapmaking, we will happily trade maps using the in-game function.
quote:
2. We need to develop trust for each other. |
This has me slightly confused. Though I understand several members of our teams discussed such an agreement, I know that I personally never discussed it, and I don't believe it was ever truly agreed upon. To be very honest, we don't even have writing at this time – something we've, to my knowledge, never been misleading about. This was clearly a lapse in communication – on my part as much as anyone else's, and I apologize. Though we need to keep contact at all levels, we also need to ensure that all deals work their way through official channels, so that everyone's always clear on what is mere discussion and what is a binding agreement. Roleplay will honor any agreements it feels that is has made, but I won’t lie to my team – I can’t recall any message from myself agreeing to Writing-Horseback riding. Obviously, if one exists, you should just tell me when it was sent, and you’ll have my fullest apologizes at the lapse in my memory. If a message between our diplomatic branches doesn’t exist on the issue, then we should clarify where the miscommunication occurred, and jointly decide what constitutes a binding agreement and what does not.
quote:
3. We need to acknowledge each other's territory. |
Indeed. As I've said, Roleplay currently has a very small territorial claim. It's the only ideal territory for cities that is within striking distance of our capital. Obviously, there is other land we'd like to settle at a later time, but for now, that is the extent of our claims – and as I've said, we are well on our way to having the area settled. We will later move on to other territories, but I don't see our settlers meeting each other any time soon – we've no desire to expand that far north.
To be honest, I don't see any reason why territory should be an issue between us. We have no reason to settle the upper parts of the continent, and any cities you found by us would be riddled with corruption. As far as my team is concerned, our teams have no conflict of interest in this matter – we'd even be willing to sign an agreement in this regard.
quote:
Thank you for your time, adaMada. I hope you will take these points seriously. |
We take these points very seriously. As I've said before, we stand to gain nothing through needless bickering except valuable time while the other teams pull ahead.
Thanks again,
adaMada
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Panzer32
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Queens University, Kingston, Ontario
Oct 2002
time: 00:25
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From Panzer32 26 January 2003
quote:
Thats ok... I should be free anytime tomorrow afternoon/evening anytime. Just PM me with the time (EST, right ), and I can be there.
Thanks
Panzer32
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It was here that we insert the chat, and things really get rolling!
From adaMada on 28 January 2003
quote:
Panzer,
There's one clause I forgot to negotiate when we were in the chat. If we trade you writing, we'd obviously ask that you not retrade it for a given number of turns -- just as you asked Lux and ND to.
Would you be willing to accept not trading Writing to another team as part of any deal we make for some period of time? Perhaps thirty turns as a starting point, though the number's flexible?
We're very close to a deal -- as soon as this is worked out, I should be able to send over an acceptance of one of your offers.
-- adaMada |
From Panzer32 on 29 January 2003
quote:
quote:
Panzer,
There's one clause I forgot to negotiate when we were in the chat. If we trade you writing, we'd obviously ask that you not retrade it for a given number of turns -- just as you asked Lux and ND to.
Would you be willing to accept not trading Writing to another team as part of any deal we make for some period of time? Perhaps thirty turns as a starting point, though the number's flexible?
We're very close to a deal -- as soon as this is worked out, I should be able to send over an acceptance of one of your offers.
-- adaMada
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adaMada
Yes, I forgot totally about this type of clause  !! But to answer, if this trade goes through, the Glory of War will not retrade writing for, say, 15 turns. If Roleplay selects a trade that includes the Glory of War giving them horseback riding, then Roleplay is not allowed to retrade Horseback Riding for 15 turns as well.
By the way, has anyone on Roleplay calculated when our nonagression pact ends? (everyone of GoW is too lazy  !)
Thank you,
Panzer32
Foreign Affairs Consulate for the Glory of War
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Panzer32
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Queens University, Kingston, Ontario
Oct 2002
time: 00:25
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From adaMada, 29 January 2003
quote:
Panzer,
Could we perhaps find a middle ground and accept a twenty turn prohibitation?
The length of time isn't a show-stopping issue, but it'd obviously be nice to find a comfortable compromise for both sides.
-- adaMada |
Somewhat off topic, but from jdjdjd, 30 January 2003
quote:
Hello Dear Panzer:
I am jdjdjd of España (RP), Ambassador to the Ottoman's(LI).
I am writing on behalf of the Ottoman's, to clear up a misconception that is out there and may hurt your opinion of LI. Lux Invicta never sought to trade us HBR for Writing until after I had approached BigFurryMonster about it. That was after I was told it was certain that our team and yours were not going to trade. Since RP and GoW worked out our differences, the trade will commense with GoW and not with Lux. Lux has never tried to interfere with the RP-GoW trade and only negotiated after we told them the trade was off.
Please let us know should you have any questions.
I remain,
jdjdjd |
From Panzer32, 30 January 2003
quote:
adaMada,
On the topic of the Horseback Riding for Writing trade:
The Glory of War believes that 20 turns is an unnecessary precaution. We believe that before that time, everyone will have finished researching another tech and by that point both of our teams will have a tech more valuable to trade. The Glory of War, therefore is prepared to make you a deal:
We continue with trading Writing for Horseback Riding. The Glory of War will not trade writing for 12 turns, while Roleplay can trade Horseback riding to whomever they chose, whenever they chose.
Here are some reasons for this deal:
1. We have fulfilled our part of the negotiations by moving our warriors north while Roleplay has not yet finalized the deal.
2. The addition of the no trade clause has reduced the value of the trade.
Keep in mind that since this deal has not gone through yet, there is nothing keeping our warrior-explorer out of the south. If we do not reach an agreement soon, we will turn back south. But remember: we're not there to attack you. We have a nonagression pact, remember?
Thank you very much,
Panzer32
Foreign Affairs Consul for the Glory of War |
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Panzer32
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Queens University, Kingston, Ontario
Oct 2002
time: 00:25
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From adaMada, 30 January 2003
quote:
Panzer,
I meant no offense. Your original offer of fifteen turns of not trading for both of us is acceptable if it still is to you -- I was just trying to strike a middle ground between the two team's offers.
If you will accept what is above, Roleplay will accept offer #3. To refresh everyone's memory, it was:
GoW Gives: Horseback riding and warrior removal now and 60 gold upon reception of writing.
Roleplay Gives: Writing upon acquisition
* Neither team will trade the tech it acquires for fifteen turns after acquisition.
I am very pleased to hear that your warrior has already begun to prepare for it's long trip back towards your homeland, as it is a long trip. Please pass along our best wishes to your men.
Finally, let me thank you for your reasonableness and willingness to sort things out. I feel that we were very successful in finding a common middle ground in the chat, and I hope that we can have many more productive meetings in the future.
-- adaMada
Togas’ Ambassador to Glory of War |
From Togas
quote:
Panzer32,
I'm concerned that adaMada has not contacted you about our tech exchange, etc. I posted orders for him on Tuesday and again sent him instructions Thursday but I have not heard back from him.
I authorized him to proceed with the following deal:
"HBR now and 60 gold in 4 turns for removal and writing in 4 turns"
Of course, a few turns have gone by. We will have writing in less than 4 turns.
I expect that this will work in the following mannor:
We receive HBR from you.
We follow the warrior (I think his name is Basher) as he moves north from the Eneros Mountains, through the desert, and into the jungle.
We then exchange Writing for 60g.
We are pleased to see that your other warrior has left the area near Madrid.
--Togas |
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07-02-2003 03:25
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