07-02-2003 09:52									#1
	The Tesla Dilemma Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Congratulations, Mr. President!

Over the weekend you were sworn in as POTUS. Now on Monday it's time to receive your "Secrets Briefing". This is where George Tenet, the Director of the CIA, tells you about the deepest darkest secrets of the US Government.

George tells you that there are two threats that are rated the most dangerous to the nation: North Korea and OBL. He describes each, but stresses North Korea as the most dangerous. OBL has blown up a couple of embassies and detonated a bomb in the World Trade Center, but hasn't proven the capability for mass death. North Korea is thought to have enough fissile material for two nuclear warheads and has 1 million troops facing you along the Korean DMZ. And NK is unpredictable.

George turns the briefing over to Henry Shelton, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who tells you about the military capabilities of the US Government. He also goes through the experimental projects, such as the flying saucers being tested by Lockheed-Martin Skunkworks.

Henry ends his part of the briefing by describing a microwave technology which allows the military to lock onto a particular metal that is used in all conventional arms and heats it to point where all the arms are rendered inoperable. Just point it in the right direction. The thing about this technology is that it's almost trivial to implement by any country. Just that nobody has ever researched it, except us and the Russians.

Fast forward to the year 2003. North Korea is getting a little ornery. 10 million people may starve with the status quo and the leadership is threatening to become a nuclear state, destroying 50 years of nuclear non-proliferation work. The question then becomes: Do you plan your military and diplomatic activities with regard to North Korea with this microwave device as part of the arsenal? That is, would you plan to use it, if necessary?

If you do, then you will be able to defeat the NKs rather easily--very minimal loss on both sides. You will therefore be more aggressive in your diplomacy. However, most other countries will then see how effective and easy this technology is, causing havock for the current world order.

If you don't, you will subject the American people and the world to a combination of nuclear and conventional blackmail that might not be effective in the end.

What do you do?

The parameters in the following primer can be used to help form your opinion...

http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/ne...s/aw1004dir.xml

Last edited by DanS on 08-02-2003 at 00:52

	07-02-2003 10:01									#2
	Remove this text

Improve relations with North Korea, remove any sanctions on them, and withdraw troops and military aid from South Korea.

If push came to shove, of course I would use it as a means to safeguard the US from ICBMs. Anything else would be wrong.

	07-02-2003 10:03									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Wow, good answer David!

	07-02-2003 10:04									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Just choose the banana option and stay out of the thread if you're not interested in the hypothetical.

	07-02-2003 10:07									#5
	Got spare money?

I'm sure you know what you can do with your banana...

Plus, I did participate. David's answer is exactly what I'd do. That's scary though

	07-02-2003 10:07									#6
	Put an end to popups!

Fine. In this restricted hypothetical, yes, I would use the device to save lives.

	07-02-2003 10:10									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

OK, but realize that having this device in your active arsenal will necessarily make you more aggressive diplomatically, since you know that the risks to you are lower than NK--and everybody else--believes them to be.

	07-02-2003 10:10									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

DanS

since nobody has research this technology wouldn't the US have an oppertunity to use it in a preemptive attack against the entire world? telsa first then smart bombs and troops next?

i'd empose pax americana across the entire world

	07-02-2003 10:12									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

They would not make me more aggressive any more than a working SDI system would.

	07-02-2003 10:12									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Yes, korn469. But the metal that this device targets also is used in manufacturing machinery.

	07-02-2003 10:16									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

As an aside, before the discussion gets started in earnest, George Bush actually did receive this secrets briefing, and the threats were laid out to him as I described. However, the microwave device is hypothetical.

The reason why I call it a Tesla dilemma is because Tesla is the father of microwave energy transmission (and AC electricity, etc.). He's also the father of the death ray, and actually described how somebody could split the Earth in two with a relatively simple device.

Also, it's no secret that the most devestating attack on the US is probably a suitcase EMP device that wouldn't kill a soul, but would knock out all electronics (and erase all hard drives and backupt tapes) in a large radius.

Last edited by DanS on 07-02-2003 at 10:28

	07-02-2003 10:18									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Yeah, it had to do with sound and gravity waves, right?

	07-02-2003 10:18									#13
	Get a bigger avatar today!

David: The thing with SDI is that NK has 800k soldiers along the DMZ. SDI wouldn't guard against the artillery, so you would not be aggressive.

Re the splitting the Earth in two, he described a ground pounder running on a particular frequency (1/3 Hz?).

	07-02-2003 10:20									#14
	Put an end to popups!

No, I wouldn't care about the DMZ because I wouldn't be in Korea.

	07-02-2003 10:22									#15
	Increase the size of your Attachments

DanS

I use it on all of the noncompliant states, plus france just for the hell of it, then i get enough panzy states to pass a non-proliferation on tesla production and any states that attempt to build them preempted

	07-02-2003 10:24									#16
	Support Apolyton

splitting the Earth in two! cool!

	07-02-2003 10:24									#17
	Tired of ads?

quote: If you do, then you will be able to defeat the NKs rather easily--very minimal loss on both sides. You will therefore be more aggressive in your diplomacy. However, most other countries will then see how effective and easy this technology is, causing havock for the current world order.

rearming our troops with polymer/ceramic rifles, which would be immune to the microwave weapon

	07-02-2003 10:25									#18
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by DanS The reason why I call it a Tesla dilemma is because Tesla is the father of microwave energy transmission (and AC electricity, etc.). He's also the father of the death ray, and actually described how somebody could split the Earth in two with a relatively simple device.

He's a bit of a nut.

	07-02-2003 10:30									#19
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

He was a raving lunatic! However, AC electricity and microwave energy transmission are two of the greatest scientific discoveries ever.

	07-02-2003 10:42									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

rearming our troops with polymer/ceramic rifles, which would be immune to the microwave weapon

Good thought. Except it would obsolete your entire existing assets almost instantly. And it's simple enough that non-state actors such as OBL could reverse engineer it.

	07-02-2003 10:48									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yeah, but you could destroy the other side's relatively easily with HARM munitions, which not everyone has. Therefore you still have military superiority.

And even if the HARM thing doesn't work out, I can think of worse things than a world which lacks the ability to wage war.

	07-02-2003 11:02									#22
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

It wouldn't take long for these items to work. Seconds.

I seriously doubt HARM munitions would have time to destroy these items after activation.

	07-02-2003 11:10									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

But as you previously stated, it has to be pointing the right direction. On top of that, I can't imagine the range of these weapons to be that great.

	07-02-2003 11:14									#24
	Full PM-box? Change here!

True on both accounts. But the damage would already be done...

	07-02-2003 17:22									#25
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

This microwave thingie of yours has great problems:

1. Target selection? Which metal would that be? Iron? Nickel? Chromium? Titanium? Vanadium? Molybdenum? And who says that ALL military equipment and that ONLY military equipment have that element in their synthesis? To my knowledge, even when it concerns rare alloy elements, their use is widespread.

2. Area coverage? By what means could you deliver the needed amounts of microwave radiation over an entire country? Would this be some ultra-bomb, or would this be carried out via antennae?

3. Power? If the goal is to heat up the equipment until it becomes inoperable, then iron and nickel alloys would have to be heated to the point that all working surfaces of said equipment would be welded together (seizure). This happens in temperatures above 500-600 C. To achieve this for the several thousand tons of equipment, you would need a monstrous amount of energy. If the plan is to locally heat up just the surface areas, then the power needed is not so great, but how do you do that from a distance and with the required accuracy?

You hypothetical case is so full of holes, it isn't funny any more.

	07-02-2003 17:31									#26
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Btw, Jack London has once written a short story about a scientist who invented the kill-all-weapons ray. It created sparks which could set gunpowder off anytime, from any distance and despite any shielding. He used it to disarm all nations and impose a world order of peace.

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/London/...rong/enemy.html

	07-02-2003 23:50									#27
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

A question for the discussion moderator (just read the intro thread, not all the comments after, so a thousand pardons if this question has already been asked):

* What is the range of the device? Is it possible to mount them on an orbital satellite platform?

-=Vel=-
(as Vel begins devising his answer to the dilemma)

	07-02-2003 23:57									#28
	Put an end to popups!

* What is the range of the device? Is it possible to mount them on an orbital satellite platform?

Let's say 100 miles. As such, no they would not be able to be mounted on an orbital platform, but yes they could be mounted in international waters...

	07-02-2003 23:59									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I'd use the device. Then we could go back to hacking each other to pieces rather than shooting each other full of holes.

	08-02-2003 00:17									#30
	Put an end to popups!

Here's some background information on the high powered microwave devices being readied for use. The hypothetical in this thread rests on being able to do this with other materials, not just those necessary for electronics...

http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/ne...s/aw1004dir.xml

You can use the parameters in the article as additional information to help you form your opinion.

Last edited by DanS on 08-02-2003 at 00:32