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DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
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Thumbs up  Old Post 07-02-2003 21:29 Visit DanS's homepage!
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Space Program Priorities Revisited Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

A good article in the Wall Street Journal. I agree that it's time to wind down Shuttle and the Space Station. The $5 billion per annum saved should be plowed into some more exploratory and science items. Many of these programs are absurdly cheap for the expected payoff. With better engines, the payoff would be quicker as well.

I would also put some money ($1/2 billion per year) toward basic technology for single-stage-to-orbit reusable manned vehicle. The Shuttle technology is valuable, just not in its current configuration.

quote:
BUSINESS WORLD
By HOLMAN W. JENKINS, JR.

How to Spell NASA
Revival: N-U-K-E

NASA will be flayed and hung out to dry for its performance in the latest shuttle disaster. But let's face it: The country has not done right by the agency or its personnel.

Back in the 1960s, Apollo earned NASA the curse of bureaucratic charisma. Ever since, presidents have felt obliged to nail their colors to space. That's how we got the shuttle from the Nixon administration and its bastard half-cousin, the space station, from the Reagan administration. Now both projects have left the agency looking like a case of the federal budget writ small: A sliver of productive discretionary spending squeezed between two entitlement programs that live on regardless of rationale.

The space station is tens of billions of dollars over-budget and almost useless because we failed to provide an escape craft that would permit more than three crew members aboard at one time. Maintaining the station uses up their time, leaving one crew member a few hours a week at best for the science studies that were supposed to justify the station's massive cost.

It's no stretch to say the space station exists to give the shuttle somewhere to go and the shuttle exists to give the space station an illusion of viability. Neither program could survive long without the other. If Columbia's sisters are grounded for any length of time, the space station will effectively be abandoned -- though rhetorical fig leaves will be found to fuzz this reality.

To pile irony on top of the weekend's tragedy, the Bush administration and NASA administrator Sean O'Keefe were shaping a constructive mission for the sliver left over even as they fed the legacy budget beast. Before events intervened, NASA was slated to unveil plans to spend $1 billion over five years to develop two kinds of nuclear power plant for robotic and manned space exploration. While the rest of the world was preoccupied last week by passing storms in Iraq and North Korea, space obsessives were thrilling to news leaks suggesting the words "nuclear rocket" might even appear in Tuesday's State of the Union address. They didn't, but in retrospect the public would have been well-served to hear that NASA is on the verge of getting ambitious again.

Yes, this emerging prospect has been causing nuclearphobes to have a cow all year, especially those who suspect the secret purpose is to advance the cause of missile defense. But even the European Space Agency has acknowledged that further space exploration isn't possible without atomic energy. NASA's Mr. O'Keefe called it the "single most important initiative" of his agency.

Nuclear power provides several times the energy of chemical rocketry for any given mass of propellant. For deep space probes, this means being able to enter and leave orbits of distant objects, going from one to the next, rather than mere flybys. And it means being able to generate enough electricity for active scanning and to send large data files back to Earth, allowing sharper and richer images.

On manned missions, nuclear power would allow transit times to Mars to be cut to 45 days from six months, saving the crew prolonged exposure to cosmic radiation. And nuclear power is perhaps the only way to generate power to convert Martian resources into air and water for explorers (or settlers) and fuel for the trip home (hydrogen being the preferred molecule to be heated by a fission engine to produce high-velocity thrust).

Mars is more affordable as a percentage of GDP today than Apollo was in the 1960s, though that was before colonization of the federal budget by the Medicare blob. Nonetheless, the job would require a far different kind of NASA, more in tune with the decentralizing possibilities of information technology.

Look at the first Bush budget: In 2002, every NASA program was judged to be "ineffective" under benchmarking except for two -- the Discovery and Explorer planetary/astronomy projects. They both choose their missions by peer review, then put them out for cost-capped competitive bidding. Were the shuttle run this way, it never would have passed muster on a cost-benefit analysis. Even now the results of its experiments are seldom published in a refereed journal. NASA can't take the chance with a shuttle program so powerfully controlled by political and budgetary imperatives.

Robert Zubrin, a former Lockheed engineer and pied piper of the private Mars Society, argues cogently that a $20 billion Mars Prize, endowed by the U.S. government, would be enough to get the first humans to the Red Planet and back. Don't write him off. NASA's own deep planners have sketched out a Mars mission for $30 billion.

Blaming budget cuts for the Columbia disaster, as many seem inclined to do, invites us to make exactly the wrong choice. NASA already has too much budget for the wrong things -- at a time when we should be making the quantum technological progress that would keep us a full generation ahead of emerging space powers like China and India. Mr. O'Keefe has taken darts for saying it but he's right that NASA should be concentrating on bringing forth the "enabling technologies" for missions we'll want to undertake a decade hence, Mars being the obvious case.

Yet it would be beyond NASA or any agency, psychologically or budgetarily, to fess up that its most visible and heavily funded programs are a costly distraction. Needed now is an extraordinary act of presidential intervention, of a kind not seen in 30 years. President Nixon was the last to kill a major space program, but Mr. Bush would be doing NASA a huge favor if he helped it get off the shuttle treadmill.

Last edited by DanS on 07-02-2003 at 21:44

Tolls is offline Tolls
King
Hereford, UK
Jan 1970
time: 05:25
  Old Post 07-02-2003 22:14
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I don't think shutting down either the ISS or STS is going to happen at the moment. Shutting them down before you have a functioning replacement makes it harder to go back (manned that is).

The ISS is important for research into physiological effects of micro-G, something that is going to be needed for any Mars mission...it is not simply an engineering problem as the WSJ seems to be implying.

What we need now is to get the X33 back in line as a project. That would also solve the problem with those pesky tiles.

DanS is offline DanS
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  Old Post 07-02-2003 22:25 Visit DanS's homepage!
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What we need now is to get the X33 back in line as a project.

X33 shouldn't be revived per se. It would just create a replacement bureaucratic boondoggle. However, we should continue to do work on the engines that were causing so much trouble. That and the materials work were the most interesting things about X33.

I don't think shutting down either the ISS or STS is going to happen at the moment. Shutting them down before you have a functioning replacement makes it harder to go back (manned that is).

I don't agree. It's not like we lost much between Apollo and the Shuttle. We can maintain our expertise reasonably well over time.

The ISS is important for research into physiological effects of micro-G, something that is going to be needed for any Mars mission...it is not simply an engineering problem as the WSJ seems to be implying.

A manned mission to Mars shouldn't be the goal. It will come, to be sure. And perhaps earlier than we think.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:25
  Old Post 07-02-2003 22:27
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Yes, shutting down the space shuttle would force NASA move aggressively to better alternatives for near earth manned missions, and to think about setting up permanent bases on the Moon and on Mars.

Putting sattelites into orbit is not a job for the space shuttle or for any manned mission.

If the Euros and the Russians want the space station - let them maintain it.

Zylka is offline Zylka
Prince
sure
May 2000
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  Old Post 07-02-2003 22:29
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I'M CRANKY AND I CAN'T FIND ANY F*CKING LIVERWURST IN THIS HOUSE

Lonestar is offline Lonestar
Prince
AECCP Dark Lord of the Sith
Aug 2000
time: 00:25
  Old Post 07-02-2003 22:44 Visit Lonestar's homepage!
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Again, screw Moon Bases. They cost too much and are unnesscary to the further devolpment of Humanity.

On to Mars under Dr. Zubrin's "Mars Direct" plan!

Leave Earth Orbit to the Private sector.

Tolls is offline Tolls
King
Hereford, UK
Jan 1970
time: 05:25
  Old Post 10-02-2003 14:05
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"That and the materials work were the most interesting things about X33."

But the X33 provided the goal to aim towards, which gave a framework for the development of these technologies. Without a core program (ie a better orbiter) how do you define success?

"It's not like we lost much between Apollo and the Shuttle. We can maintain our expertise reasonably well over time."

During which the capability was maintained over the 5-6 years. You shut down the shuttle now and there is nothing that you have that will get a person up there.

"A manned mission to Mars shouldn't be the goal. It will come, to be sure. And perhaps earlier than we think."

Without it being the goal it will not happen by itself. Without work on long duration manned spaceflight annd its effects it will not happen.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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May 1999
time: 13:25
  Old Post 10-02-2003 14:07
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Don't forget, it's much easier to launch from the ISS than on the surface of the earth.

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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time: 23:25
  Old Post 10-02-2003 14:15
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The moon is the ideal place to test the technology to be used in the surface exploration of Mars. It is also a source of raw materials with a shallow gravity well to pull them out of. It's a place where solar power can be used more effectively than anywhere on Earth, and nuclear power can be used without fear for the (nonexistant lunar) environment.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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  Old Post 10-02-2003 14:19
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The best places for launchs are the Lagrange points.

Tolls is offline Tolls
King
Hereford, UK
Jan 1970
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  Old Post 10-02-2003 14:29
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They may be the best for launch, but they are costly to get to in terms of fuel.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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  Old Post 10-02-2003 14:30
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Much easier to get there from the ISS.

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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  Old Post 10-02-2003 14:31
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I found this to be 'instructive':

http://silver.neep.wisc.edu/~neep53.../lecture13.html

Timexwatch is offline Timexwatch
King
Columbia Heights, Washington D.C.
Jul 1999
time: 00:25
  Old Post 10-02-2003 14:48
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The question is whether or not lawmakers from Florida, Texas and several other states along with the conglomerate that services the shuttles will allow the scrapping of the ISS/Shuttle. I would anticipate a small firestorm in Congress if the lights went out on the shuttle.

I like the idea of a prize for getting to Mars, but I wonder how the mission would be done. Would it be wholly private or would NASA guys drive private ships in a race to Mars? There are few single companies in aerospace/defense/space that can afford to pay for a Mars program. Wouldn't the 30 billion simply be a huge corporate subsidy for entrenched interests?

pg is offline pg
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  Old Post 10-02-2003 14:50 Visit pg's homepage!
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i think using nuclear power would bring almost any option to the table.

http://www.nuclearspace.com/

here's part of an article written by zubrin which is quite interesting...

quote:
To compare the propulsive efficiency of different rocket technologies, engineers use a characteristic called specific impulse. It indicates the amount of time, in seconds, that the technology can put out a pound (4.45 newtons) of thrust while expending a pound (0.454 kg) of propellant. According to the laws of physics, if you quadruple the energy density of a rocket's propellant by, for example, using the nuclear steam kettle rather than a chemical engine, you get a doubling of the rocket's specific impulse.

The actual figures are 450 seconds for the chemical engine and 900 seconds for the steam kettle (more formally known as a nuclear thermal rocket). If you run the numbers, you find you need half as much propellant, at most, with the nuclear rocket. (You'd probably get away with less than half because the rocket pushes not only the payload but also the propellant—and the nuclear rocket has much less propellant.)

Doubling specific impulse is not bad, but it's just the beginning. If we convert the nuclear power into electricity and then use it to accelerate an ionized propellant through an electrostatic grid, we can boost specific impulse by a factor of 10, to around 5000 seconds. Such a nuclear-electric propulsion system would be perfect for some applications, such as propelling uninhabited probes to the outer planets.


the rest is here http://www.nuclearspace.com/a_zubrin.html

Tolls is offline Tolls
King
Hereford, UK
Jan 1970
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  Old Post 10-02-2003 14:59
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UR:
Correct, but you still have to get the fuel to the ISS...which leads us to possibly look at propulsion technology which is useable to take stuff from LEO to the higher orbits.

Timex:
I'm not sure the Mars prize is much cop, for pretty much the reasons you put forward. Now, the X prize is at least within the finances of a large number of groups.

DanS is offline DanS
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  Old Post 10-02-2003 15:03 Visit DanS's homepage!
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But the X33 provided the goal to aim towards, which gave a framework for the development of these technologies. Without a core program (ie a better orbiter) how do you define success?

Just set up a benchmark along the lines of the Venturestar RLV. It's a fairly well developed hypothetical.

During which the capability was maintained over the 5-6 years. You shut down the shuttle now and there is nothing that you have that will get a person up there.

We do have the space plane possibility that could be the manned launcher in 6 or 7 years, if we pushed hard on the gas. This would cost much less to develop than a full-featured RLV. It would use similar materials to Venturestar and off-the-shelf propulsion.

Without it being the goal it will not happen by itself. Without work on long duration manned spaceflight annd its effects it will not happen.

It will happen sooner or later, as political will allows.

Overall, I might be able to accept the Station, serviced by anything other than the Shuttle. The Station will be the lesser albatross of the two once fully assembled.

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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  Old Post 10-02-2003 15:47
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Another nice thing about the Moon is that you don't need to resort to chemical rockets to lift material to orbit -- atomics all the way, baby!

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:25
  Old Post 10-02-2003 16:49
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Moon bases

we need that Helium damnit!!

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