07-02-2003 23:59									#1
	Is the Carrier too weak on defense? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I feel that an 8 defense for the carrier is too low. It needs to be around 10-12. It's too easy to sink for a modern day nuclear carrier...

	08-02-2003 00:27									#2
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But..... carriers are hard to sink because of their support craft. Put a carrier alone in the open sea against a nuclear sub or a battleship or such, and I think the results are predictable. In Civ this is modelled by having additional ships stacked with the carrier.

At least that's my take on the subject.

	08-02-2003 02:14									#3
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If you run into a situation where the carrier's defensive value becomes an issue, one of two things has happened. Either the carrier didn't have enough escorts or it moved into an area where the enemy had concentrated a lot of air power. I think 8 is about right - if anything it may be too high.

	08-02-2003 02:27									#4
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My friends in the Submarine world have a special name for carriers, "Targets".

	08-02-2003 03:38									#5
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The same torpedo or missile would do far more damage to a destroyer or a cruiser than a carrier, even if it does not have defensive armament it is more strongly built.

I give carriers 12 and with due credit to Warpstorm's submarine friends, i give submarines attack of 12 and nuke subs attack of 16.

	08-02-2003 06:15									#6
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quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm My friends in the Submarine world have a special name for carriers, "Targets".

until they hear the ping of a sonobuoy directly overhead, and the engine of a MK50 torpedo spinning up.

	08-02-2003 06:58									#7
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Unescorted carriers should be easy to sink. If anything, a defence of 8 is too high.

	08-02-2003 07:16									#8
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Well, I'm not an expert in these subjects, build-up of carriers and stuff, but I have a ignorant concordance with Stuie: Carriers are powerful and dangerous units because their aircraft support, and, as a rule of thumb, always should (in game, if not in real life) have a escort ship like battleship or at least 2-3 destroyers.

It's nice to use Carriers as "Targets". I usualy like to travel one of them alone, full loaded with fighters, and a loose escort of submarines nearby. Just a few well-made recoinnaissance missions, 1-2 turns of stalling and "dumb target" acting and voilá! Lots of ships sinking around.

	08-02-2003 07:48									#9
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Yes, without the aircraft and support craft, the carrier is just a huge ship with not much armament.

	08-02-2003 11:22									#10
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hi ,

, a carrier should at least be able to withstand two cruisemissiles , so a carrier should have at least a defense of thirty-two , it should also hold eight units and in return cost three times its current price , ....

have a nice day

	08-02-2003 11:53									#11
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Panag, when do you intent to make a serious post?

D of 32? On what planet?

	08-02-2003 15:13									#12
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I don't boost the carrier's defense in my games.

I just double the thing's initial hit points.

	08-02-2003 15:58									#13
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I always stack a carrier with a couple of battleships and a couple of destroyers. I have yet to lose one.

Even the AI is smart enough to escort a carrier with at least a battleship

	08-02-2003 20:03									#14
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When I think of a Carrier unit in Civ III, I think of it with all its support ships being there but invisible on the screen. I seems like the majority of players don't see it this way, they see it as a lone Carrier floating in the ocean. This is where the discrepancy is. If it represents the Carrier with all its support ships, because most units in the game do not represent just one unit but several units, then the defense definately needs to be higher...

	08-02-2003 20:07									#15
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OFF TOPIC: Sometimes my post doesn't take, it shows up in here but doesn't move to the top of the list in General Forum... Any Ideas?

	08-02-2003 22:08									#16
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Unlike land or air units, I've always thought of ships in Civ2 and Civ3 as individuals.

	09-02-2003 00:59									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Unconquered OFF TOPIC: Sometimes my post doesn't take, it shows up in here but doesn't move to the top of the list in General Forum... Any Ideas?

That happens when the server is under heavy load. Certain features of the board get turned off til the load lightens.

	09-02-2003 01:02									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Unlike land or air units, I've always thought of ships in Civ2 and Civ3 as individuals.

thats as arbitrary a position, as any other, of course...

	09-02-2003 01:28									#19
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins thats as arbitrary a position, as any other, of course...

No, it isn't. It's logical to assume that a "battleship" is composed of one battleship. Anything else is an arbitrary position.

If carrier units represented support ships too, why would you even need battleships, destroyers, and cruisers?

	09-02-2003 01:40									#20
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Personally, I think it's fun to imagine that when you make a unit, you make *one* man only. It leads to funny incoherent things like in the first turns of the game, that you take 250 to 500 years to form and train a warrior, or later you taking 40 or 60 years to train a man with a sword.

Large combats are made between 2 to 3 dozen people, and maybe you can see how lucky you are when your *only* and *lone* infantry soldier takes out *one* and *lone* attacking tank. Or, in opposite situation, the *one* and *only* tank gets over the soldier and rules all the city *alone*.

Hey! Over there! Our hero infantry soldier wins over the tank!

	09-02-2003 01:50									#21
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DP.

	09-02-2003 01:52									#22
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The units can represent an abstract grouping, in which the 'lead ship'/predominant technolgy is... a carrier, or an Aegis Cruiser or... so on and so forth.

The Battleship is a case in point... it has a high defence... but that doesn't match common Battleship experience: the predominant form of intership combat is Guided missile, and not gunnery. Any ship with multiple SM-1-ER or SM-2-ER batteries would outperform this ship from a defensive viewpoint. Even a destroyer.

Since formations use interrelated defense... (ASW and AAW) no ship can be... defensively... 'an island'.

Multiple 'forms' of attack mean that no defensive value makes sense, unless its considered to be part of a mini-BG.

	09-02-2003 11:26									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Unconquered When I think of a Carrier unit in Civ III, I think of it with all its support ships being there but invisible on the screen. I seems like the majority of players don't see it this way, they see it as a lone Carrier floating in the ocean. This is where the discrepancy is. If it represents the Carrier with all its support ships, because most units in the game do not represent just one unit but several units, then the defense definately needs to be higher...

There have been threads on the subject of "how many troops are in a Civ 3 unit?" and it appears that there are as many answers as there are players. If Firaxis ever offered an answer I'm not aware of it. I think basically, all the units are just abstractions, with values assigned for gameplay balance and other such considerations. I think of them in terms of Cohorts, Legions, Regiments, etc. If pedrojedi wants to think of them as one man, he's equally correct.
As far as Carriers are concerned, I think that if they were intended to represent a Carrier and all it's escorts, the unit would have been called Carrier "Group" or "Task Force" or something of that nature. Bottom line is that without modding it, a Carrier needs a strong escort to avoid a short lifespan.

	09-02-2003 12:10									#24
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I look at it this way:

A worker represents about 10,000 people; a settler, maybe twice that.

A galley can move two of those.

	09-02-2003 12:29									#25
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A settler is 10,000 people. That is the pop of a size one city, isn't it?

	09-02-2003 19:41									#26
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Panag, when do you intent to make a serious post? D of 32? On what planet?

hi ,

one cruise missile should not be able to sink a carrier , .....

carriers are not sitting in every small port neither , there are not even fifthy in the whole world today , the AI tends to build more then that in a game , .....

with the increased cost and the higher defense and load the AI builds less

and by the way , ever walked on a carrier , you have to be mad to shoot at it during war , ....modern day carriers have an airwing and so many stand off weapons that a modern day carriers can take on almost surface or non surface ship in the world , ........

there are some people who play with mods inwhere carriers have a defense value of 48 , ......

have a nice day

	09-02-2003 19:41									#27
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Yep -- I said 'maybe twice that' because it takes two pop points (which should be...30,000 people) to make one in Civ III.

I guess it leaks people in transit...

	10-02-2003 13:46									#28
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I find the defense of 8 to be just fine. Someone said it already: if you're silly enough to move your carrier without escort you should see that as your problem, not the lacking defense.

Off topic: an airplane that is able to detect subs would be nice...

	10-02-2003 14:17									#29
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Mod it if you don't like it

	10-02-2003 15:41									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Daz I find the defense of 8 to be just fine. Someone said it already: if you're silly enough to move your carrier without escort you should see that as your problem, not the lacking defense. Off topic: an airplane that is able to detect subs would be nice...

hi ,

indeed an air unit that spots subs and can fight them would be nice , an anti sub helicopter would be better , there should also be a frigate that can hold one of these , .....

have a nice day