08-02-2003 05:56									#31
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I haggle for stuff that is worth haggling for. Usually over $200. Furnishings, clothes, computers, cars, houses. Otherwise, it's not worth my time.

The other issue is that in North America, you're usually dealing with a salesclerk who has no authority to haggle. It's different if you're dealing with an owner.

In Mexico, I haggled. It's part of the experience. I did it for the same reason I didn't buy lunch at Subways.

	08-02-2003 06:03									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Willem I suspect that many Canadians don't even think about it, it's just not part of their mentality. Frankly I think it's good thing , at least for here. I shudder to think what the lines up at the supermarket would be like if everyone stopped and haggled. We'd never get out of the store!

That is because the prices are set in western supermarkets for reasons given above. We know that is the way it's done.

But the point of travelling overseas is to learn about other cultures, including their customs.

People that really piss me off are the westerners who travel to a foreign country and then go to MacDonalds for lunch, how crass is that?

Felch. you are being ripped off - using your example you're paying 2/3 more than you should. Add that up through an entire holiday and that is big bucks, especially on stuff like accommodation as I described above...

	08-02-2003 06:04									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man In Mexico, I haggled. It's part of the experience. I did it for the same reason I didn't buy lunch at Subways.

	08-02-2003 06:07									#34
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS That guy is laughing at you when he's taking your money because he's just scalped another sucker...

If he can afford it so what? Frankly, I don't see what your point is, except maybe to try and ridicule English North Americans. It's simply not part of the way we do business, so what's your problem with that?

	08-02-2003 06:15									#35
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS But the point of travelling overseas is to learn about other cultures, including their customs.

Even if they're a waste of time and energy?

If I were on holidays in a foreign country, I could think of better things to do than argueing over money. That's the whole point of going on vacation for most North Americans, to not worry about it for awhile, to forget their jobs and their obligations. For many people, they wouldn't even think they've had a good time unless they throw caution to the wind and spend a lot.

	08-02-2003 06:19									#36
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Being "ripped off" is relative. If the items in question are cheap to us anyway, buying them outright may be worth the cost of not having to haggle.

Rich people often buy things without looking for sales, whereas I refuse to buy almost anything that isn't on sale. But I don't ***** at the rich person for buying it at a higher cost. If I were that rich, I'd do the same thing, because I would be, in essence, paying for the convenience of not having to wait for a desired item to go on sale. And if the difference in cost is negligible to me anyway, I won't care.

	08-02-2003 06:20									#37
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I don't think its cool for tourists to haggle. The person selling you the stuff probably has trouble making ends meet, and after all you have the money to leave the country on vacation. It's no time to be cheap at some poor guys expense.

	08-02-2003 06:24									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Willem If he can afford it so what? Frankly, I don't see what your point is, except maybe to try and ridicule English North Americans. It's simply not part of the way we do business, so what's your problem with that?

My problem as I pointed out earlier is that in certain places and times it makes my haggling into a chore, if someone has just sold something to an American for big money, he wants the same from me!

My problem is that I have a good idea of the value of things and that it irritates me when the seller is reluctant to reduce his price to a fair one.

Would you ever knowingly be ripped off?

Thought not! American (and Japanese to a lesser degree) tourists upset the applecart. I have nothing against them wasting their money as it's theirs to waste, it's just the consequences of their actions...

	08-02-2003 06:29									#39
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Mobius is silly, he's acting like haggling is a good thing. It's pretty stupid unless it's a high-priced item, and at that point it becomes negotiation.

I could take this a step farther, though, Mobius, and mock you for wasting money going to foreign places in the first place. After all, I have no interest in doing so -- and you're wasting your money! And all the tourists shops are laughing all the way to the bank, haggling or not!

	08-02-2003 06:35									#40
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS My problem as I pointed out earlier is that in certain places and times it makes my haggling into a chore, ...

Maybe that's because haggling is a chore. It's not our fault that you're engaging something that's literally and inherently a waste of time! If you tried to haggle here, a lot of people would just think you were a cheapskate and a tight wad.

You aren't Scottish by any chance?

	08-02-2003 06:35									#41
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS My problem as I pointed out earlier is that in certain places and times it makes my haggling into a chore, if someone has just sold something to an American for big money, he wants the same from me!

Isn't that how capitalism works in any place? If enough people are willing to pay a higher price for an item, it will be sold for that higher price, regardless of what people who don't want to pay that higher price think. Happens here, too.

	08-02-2003 06:41									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Mobius is silly, he's acting like haggling is a good thing.

No, he's just trying to bait an American.

	08-02-2003 06:42									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Even if they're a waste of time and energy? If I were on holidays in a foreign country, I could think of better things to do than argueing over money. That's the whole point of going on vacation for most North Americans, to not worry about it for awhile, to forget their jobs and their obligations. For many people, they wouldn't even think they've had a good time unless they throw caution to the wind and spend a lot.

Haggling done properly is a good natured affair, you're smiling, joking about the 'good luck', 'rain', 'honeymoon', 'end of the day' prices the sellers try to give you. It is part of interacting with the local people.

quote: I don't think its cool for tourists to haggle. The person selling you the stuff probably has trouble making ends meet, and after all you have the money to leave the country on vacation. It's no time to be cheap at some poor guys expense.

I disagree on several levels, firstly you should be respecting their culture - that is their way of doing things.

Secondly, they would not sell the goods to me if they weren't making some money.

In Bali we were paying about 20,000 for sarongs down from about 75,000 in Kuta and Ubud, when we were touring the countryside they were so desperate because of the effect of last year's bomb attack that the starting price was 10,000! That was the only time we bought at full price, because you could see their desperation as the tourists just weren't visiting those areas...

The point is they're still making a profit at 10,000, so the full price that Americans pay represents a staggering profit ratio. Paying inflated prices distorts the economy and promotes greed, I think it's a bad thing. The reason why Bali is in so much trouble now is that it has become almost 100% reliant on tourism over the years - now the tourists have gone for the time being...

Besides when you travel you have a budget of how much you're prepared to spend over the holiday. I spend that just like the American, it's just I come back with more and better stuff because my money went further. We both put the same amount of money into the economy.

	08-02-2003 06:49									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I could take this a step farther, though, Mobius, and mock you for wasting money going to foreign places in the first place. After all, I have no interest in doing so -- and you're wasting your money!

The best things I have EVER done is travel to all the places I have in the World - it has been worth every penny, dollar, franc, lira, peseta etc...

You should try it some time...

quote: And all the tourists shops are laughing all the way to the bank, haggling or not!

Yes, you're likely very right - I like to think of haggling as damage limitation to my wallet...

	08-02-2003 06:50									#45
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Time is money and haggling wastes time. I hate haggling. It's annoying. Yeah, you can get some good deals, but generally in the 3rd world, it's not worth the hassle.

	08-02-2003 06:51									#46
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS they would not sell the goods to me if they weren't making some money. In Bali we were paying about 20,000 for sarongs down from about 75,000 in Kuta and Ubud, when we were touring the countryside they were so desperate because of the effect of last year's bomb attack that the starting price was 10,000! That was the only time we bought at full price, because you could see their desperation as the tourists just weren't visiting those areas... The point is they're still making a profit at 10,000, so the full price that Americans pay represents a staggering profit ratio. Paying inflated prices distorts the economy and promotes greed, I think it's a bad thing. The reason why Bali is in so much trouble now is that it has become almost 100% reliant on tourism over the years - now the tourists have gone for the time being... Besides when you travel you have a budget of how much you're prepared to spend over the holiday. I spend that just like the American, it's just I come back with more and better stuff because my money went further. We both put the same amount of money into the economy.

and you are proud of yourself for exploiting these people

	08-02-2003 06:54									#47
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Helping people make a living is exploitation?

	08-02-2003 06:54									#48
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS The best things I have EVER done is travel to all the places I have in the World - it has been worth every penny, dollar, franc, lira, peseta etc... You should try it some time...

I've been many places in the world, and I just don't see the interest in it.

Maybe I just don't have that silly human instinct to explore everything like most people do. And it's going to save me a lot of money.

	08-02-2003 06:54									#49
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS The point is they're still making a profit at 10,000, so the full price that Americans pay represents a staggering profit ratio. Paying inflated prices distorts the economy and promotes greed, I think it's a bad thing.

Please explain to me why paying a staggering profit ratio is a bad thing. I'm curious as to your rationale.

PS Though I'd have to agree with your interaction bit. That is a good aspect.

	08-02-2003 06:58									#50
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SB,

When you make enough money to travel the world on vacation and then you negotiate a price for something so that the shop owner can barely make a living, of course that is exploitation.

	08-02-2003 07:08									#51
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Haggling

I work in retail, and people try to haggle all the time. I generally laugh at these people.

As che said, time is money. I'd rather spend more money and have more time - if I'm on vacation, I have money to blow, and damned if I'm not gonna blow it. Besides, I'll be too drunk to haggle, anyway.

	08-02-2003 07:08									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Helping people make a living is exploitation?

Yeah that's got me beat too.

Specially when I said that I'm not looking to save money, but make it go further...

Fine, you guys are obviously happy being lazy and wasting your money. Personally I'd rather be staying in my swa-nky hotel when you're paying through the nose for your drab room...

Haggling need not be a waste of time, most times I've bought the item within a minute if it's a small thing. Take my hotel room example, that I did whilst I was checking the room - total extra time spent haggling = 0!

quote: Please explain to me why paying a staggering profit ratio is a bad thing. I'm curious as to your rationale

I'm no economist, but I think the reason why Bali is in the mess it is now is precisely that. Huge amounts of money flowed in from tourism to a previously self-sufficient economy increasing prices for everyone. Those not in the tourist industry couldn't afford the rises and turned to the industry meaning that traditional incomes died away. Suddenly tourists disappear and the whole island is f*cked as they don't know how to look after themselves anymore!

EDIT

	08-02-2003 07:12									#53
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quote: Because Americans are stupid and should be categorized as such in all future discussions.

It's true

	08-02-2003 07:15									#54
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Do you guys even haggle over things such as petrol/gasoline prices?

	08-02-2003 07:22									#55
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS I'm no economist, but I think the reason why Bali is in the mess it is now is precisely that. Huge amounts of money flowed in from tourism to a previously self-sufficient economy increasing prices for everyone. Those not in the tourist industry couldn't afford the rises and turned to the industry meaning that traditional incomes died away. Suddenly tourists disappear and the whole island is f*cked as they don't know how to look after themselves anymore! EDIT

So you are going to help them out by offering to pay them for their goods a fraction of what it would cost you in your own country. That's real nice of you.

	08-02-2003 07:22									#56
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS I'm no economist, but I think the reason why Bali is in the mess it is now is precisely that. Huge amounts of money flowed in from tourism to a previously self-sufficient economy increasing prices for everyone. Those not in the tourist industry couldn't afford the rises and turned to the industry meaning that traditional incomes died away. Suddenly tourists disappear and the whole island is f*cked as they don't know how to look after themselves anymore!

But what's the alternative, or do you think they'd settle for living exactly the way their great-grandfathers lived?

	08-02-2003 07:28									#57
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Willem,

I think you want to have increases in the productivity of their traditional industries. Then with the surplus labor you could add more industries. Otherwise prices will rise, and yes, that will make things worse.

	08-02-2003 07:58									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Do you guys even haggle over things such as petrol/gasoline prices?

Actually you could if you wanted to, but we preferred to avoid all that hassle by hiring someone to drive us around where we wanted to go all day with the money we saved by not getting ripped off...

quote: But what's the alternative, or do you think they'd settle for living exactly the way their great-grandfathers lived?

Of course not, but then if the tourists didn't corrupt the locals by overpaying for everything, they would be able to increase their standard of living gradually whilst retaining their way of life.

It's similar to victims of famine - the worst thing you can do is do everything for them, it's makes them dependent and unable to fend for themselves in the long run. Back in the '80's, Ethiopia was a bad example of this.

It is also why you are not supposed to feed wild animals...

Look, at the end of the day, do what you want. Frankly I'm amazed that you guys are so apathetic either saving money or improving the material quality of your hotel. Fine.

	08-02-2003 08:00									#59
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK I think you want to have increases in the productivity of their traditional industries. Then with the surplus labor you could add more industries.

But that requires capital investment, something that tourism can be very good at generating.

It seems to me that Bali's in the mess it's in simply because they had the misfortune of being victims of a bomb attack. I don't see whether people haggle or not has anything to do with that. If it would never have happened, they'd still be happily scalping North American tourists, who would in turn still be happily wasting their money.

	08-02-2003 08:02									#60
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS It is also why you are not supposed to feed wild animals...

That is such a paternalistic statement!