08-02-2003 08:04									#61
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK So you are going to help them out by offering to pay them for their goods a fraction of what it would cost you in your own country. That's real nice of you.

Stuff is cheaper there. For both us AND them. That $5 will go a long way for the person you buy off (especially as they know how to haggle ) and thus, you don't have a point.

Sure, I could afford to pay 5 times as much for an item. My boss could also afford to pay me 5 times as much for my work. Neither will happen.

	08-02-2003 08:06									#62
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Willem,

yeah, you are right.

MOBIUS,

Nice shock

	08-02-2003 08:09									#63
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SB,

So you think its OK for you to exploit some poor guy in the third world by paying him less than you know is fair, because your boss exploits you and pays you less than you know is fair, right?

	08-02-2003 08:19									#64
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Willem, yeah, you are right.

See, I told you I was no longer a socialist!

	08-02-2003 08:22									#65
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK SB, So you think its OK for you to exploit some poor guy in the third world by paying him less than you know is fair, because your boss exploits you and pays you less than you know is fair, right?

I pay him what he feels is fair (otherwise he wouldn't agree to it) and my boss pays me what he feels is fair. That, or award rates. The point is, if its not fair, I wouldn't accept it either. Admire the beauty of capitalism in practice.

	08-02-2003 08:25									#66
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Thought not! American (and Japanese to a lesser degree) tourists upset the applecart. I have nothing against them wasting their money as it's theirs to waste, it's just the consequences of their actions...

I agree completely that people who don't haggle screw everything up, but the Japanese are worse then the Americans.

In Bali, the price would drop something like 25 per cent when I told the seller that I'm Canadian, not Japanese.

	08-02-2003 08:25									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns I pay him what he feels is fair (otherwise he wouldn't agree to it) and my boss pays me what he feels is fair. That, or award rates. The point is, if its not fair, I wouldn't accept it either. Admire the beauty of capitalism in practice.

Hah! Just because you take a deal doesn't mean you agree that it's fair. You just agree that taking the deal is better than not taking the deal.

	08-02-2003 08:27									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Willem See, I told you I was no longer a socialist!

Greaaaaaat!

	08-02-2003 08:28									#69
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Hah! Just because you take a deal doesn't mean you agree that it's fair.

Why would someone take a deal that they didn't think was fair?

quote: You just agree that taking the deal is better than not taking the deal.

Which is what 'fair' means. Nobody's got a gun to anyone's head, in this scenario.

	08-02-2003 08:31									#70
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS In Bali we were paying about 20,000 for sarongs down from about 75,000 in Kuta and Ubud,

On the last day of my first trip to Bali, I wanted to buy a cotton sweater so I went out to the stores first thing in the morning. The storekeeper first said 85,000 so I countered with 40,000 and we finally agreed on 65,000 (about US$3.25 at the time). I handed her a 50,000 bill and a 20,000 bill. She looked at me, and then gave me back the 20,000 and said I'll give it to you for 50,000. At first I thought what a deal. Then I realised that my haggling skills were so bad that she must have taken pity on me.

	08-02-2003 08:33									#71
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It's all about negotiating power. It's got nothing to do with fair. The only reason you think it's fair is if you have the upper hand in the deal.

	08-02-2003 08:37									#72
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Of course not, but then if the tourists didn't corrupt the locals by overpaying for everything, they would be able to increase their standard of living gradually whilst retaining their way of life.

Tourism doesn't corrupt the locals. It is an industry just like anything else. The problem for Bali is that it is pretty much a one industry economy.

	08-02-2003 08:43									#73
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK It's all about negotiating power. It's got nothing to do with fair. The only reason you think it's fair is if you have the upper hand in the deal.

Nonsense. If it wasn't worth selling at the agreed price, the vendor wouldn't sell at that price.

I was in Los Cabos, Mexico about 1991. My travelling partner and I were shopping at a souvenir market and having fun haggling. T-shirts, earrings, crafts, stuff like that. But when she tried to haggle on the silver earrings, that was a total non starter. The vendor told her the earrings were $15. She offered $7. The vendor shook his head and said $15. She offered $10.... and eventually walked away (they weren't that nice earrings, after all).

The vendor knows what it's worth, and what his acceptable margin is, and won't sell at a price less than that. Silver has a value by weight, so that price was pretty obvious.

Just because something is cheap by Western standards doesn't mean that the vendor can't get rich (by local standards) by selling it.

	08-02-2003 08:47									#74
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK It's all about negotiating power. It's got nothing to do with fair. The only reason you think it's fair is if you have the upper hand in the deal.

Besides, how do I have the upper hand? The vendor knows what the product cost him and what he needs to charge to make a profit. He probably knows what everyone else in the area charges. He certainly knows that I have no clue what the cost of living is where he lives, and no idea of the value of goods in the local currency. What advantage do I have in this transaction, other than the ability to pay far more than his bottom line demands?

	08-02-2003 08:48									#75
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Old Man,

When you haggle are you trying to establish a price that is fair, or are you trying to get the cheapest price possible? How about the other person? There is no basis to your argument. If both people are trying to get the best price the actual price has nothing to do with the fair price. There isn't even an attempt to reach a fair price, except if they pity you

	08-02-2003 08:52									#76
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK If both people are trying to get the best price the actual price has nothing to do with the fair price.

What's your definition of a fair price?

	08-02-2003 08:55									#77
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A fair price is a price you are willing to pay. How does haggling prevent that from occuring?

	08-02-2003 08:56									#78
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Old Man, When you haggle are you trying to establish a price that is fair, or are you trying to get the cheapest price possible? How about the other person? There is no basis to your argument. If both people are trying to get the best price the actual price has nothing to do with the fair price. There isn't even an attempt to reach a fair price, except if they pity you

Semantics.

The fair price is the price that both parties are willing to conduct business at.

If one party is exercising bad judgment, that's their problem. That's the only situation in which the situation isn't 'fair'. For example, you may feel (as an employee) that you should be paid X dollars/year. If nobody will pay you that, it's probably not a 'fair' salary, regardless of how you feel about it.

	08-02-2003 08:59									#79
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Tingkai,

That's somewhat complicated. Let's start with this and then you can ask another question if you want. Let's say that everyone should get the same price for a good if they are selling it, and everyone should be able to buy the good for the same price if they are buying it. Otherwise you have price descrimination which is actually illegal in many countries.

	08-02-2003 09:00									#80
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS The locals know Americans will do this so they will inflate those prices knowing that the American will do a quick calculation somewhere on the lines of 'gee, that's really cheap', and pay the money. We stayed at an awesome hotel in Ubud, the 'cultural capital' of Bali, being non Americans our starting price was 400,000 Rupiah for a night, which we reduced to 200,000 Rupiah (about US$20 for a seriously gorgeous room in a beautiful hotel). In walk the American couple and for them the starting price is 800,000 Rupiah. The guys thinks for a few seconds and works out that US$80 is cheap for a place like this given his experience in the US and says 'OK'. We stayed there several nights. Because we were not ignorant of the haggling system, we saved the equivalent of US$180 compared to the rates the Americans were paying. Last I heard US$180 wasn't exactly loose change even in the US... That guy is laughing at you when he's taking your money because he's just scalped another sucker...

It's just a different kind of mentality. $40 to a US tourist could be just chicken feed, and he has better uses for his time. Maybe he doesn't want to get all worked up and ruin his stay. Money is just one of the concerns.

A very bad effect of this practice is, once the news start spreading, tourists will stop going to Bali. Indeed, who wants to be fleeced? That's why the shops here in Hong Kong stopped doing that a long time ago - after all, we want the tourists to come back again and again.

	08-02-2003 09:02									#81
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Old Man,

Consider this, you build a widget. It takes you 5 days. The highest price you can get for it is 50 cents. That's not fair at all is it?

	08-02-2003 09:10									#82
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Old Man, Consider this, you build a widget. It takes you 5 days. The highest price you can get for it is 50 cents. That's not fair at all is it?

Sure it is, if it's not worth more than 50 cents to anyone. Bottom line is, I stop building widgets. There are lots of things I know how to do - but nobody will pay me to do most of them. The same goes for just about everyone else, I expect.

If you disagree, I'd be glad to spend Sunday carving wooden boats - a skill I picked up in my childhood from my grandfather. It takes me about 45 minutes to carve a 'good' boat. By your reasoning, it's 'fair' that if I build them I should get a 'fair' price. My employer currently pays me approx $225 an hour. PM me and I'll give you my Paypal account # and you can send me $1800 for 11 boats (actually 10.67, but since you're my first customer, you get the extra 1/3 boat as a freebee).

	08-02-2003 09:11									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Besides, how do I have the upper hand? The vendor knows what the product cost him and what he needs to charge to make a profit. He probably knows what everyone else in the area charges. He certainly knows that I have no clue what the cost of living is where he lives, and no idea of the value of goods in the local currency. What advantage do I have in this transaction, other than the ability to pay far more than his bottom line demands?

You have an upper hand because it's a buyer's market. Frequently, a vendor will sell you a piece of mechandise at a price not satisfactory to him - presumably not at a loss however - because otherwise he will lose a sale and you are going to buy stuff elsewhere. In this case, you are maximising the consumer's surplus at his expense. Sort of like a reversed monopoly.

	08-02-2003 09:13									#84
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That's just silly. Of course you would rather be buying widgets than selling them if it took 5 days to build one and they only cost 50 cents. If you would rather be one or the other, selling or buying, then that means that it's unfair to be one or the other. Please..... stop being silly.

	08-02-2003 09:13									#85
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Old Man, Consider this, you build a widget. It takes you 5 days. The highest price you can get for it is 50 cents. That's not fair at all is it?

That would depend a lot on the state of the local economy. If for 50 cents the seller can pay his rent, buy his groceries for a week and still have some left over for luxuries, then in his mind it would be fair. You can't base your judgements only by the conditions in your own society.

	08-02-2003 09:15									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger You have an upper hand because it's a buyer's market. Frequently, a vendor will sell you a piece of mechandise at a price not satisfactory to him - presumably not at a loss however - because otherwise he will lose a sale and you are going to buy stuff elsewhere. In this case, you are maximising the consumer's surplus at his expense. Sort of like a reversed monopoly.

Is he better off selling it to me than not selling it to me? If so... that's fair. Vendors make less than ideal deals sometimes, of course. If they find themselves doing it all the time, they change businesses. And the guy selling me T-shirts at the resort is almost certainly doing better than the guy in the agave fields.

Where are all Apolyton's free market capitalists I usually argue with...? I'm surprised they aren't all over this one

	08-02-2003 09:16									#87
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK That's just silly. Of course you would rather be buying widgets than selling them if it took 5 days to build one and they only cost 50 cents. If you would rather be one or the other, selling or buying, then that means that it's unfair to be one or the other. Please..... stop being silly.

Me silly? You're the one who's confusing business with charity

	08-02-2003 09:21									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Is he better off selling it to me than not selling it to me? If so... that's fair. Vendors make less than ideal deals sometimes, of course. If they find themselves doing it all the time, they change businesses. And the guy selling me T-shirts at the resort is almost certainly doing better than the guy in the agave fields. Where are all Apolyton's free market capitalists I usually argue with...? I'm surprised they aren't all over this one

You're making all kinds of crazy assumptions that you probably aren't aware of. It's not as simple as just switching businessess. I'm sure such a vendor would like to get into the computer market but that's not going to happen.

	08-02-2003 09:23									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Willem That would depend a lot on the state of the local economy. If for 50 cents the seller can pay his rent, buy his groceries for a week and still have some left over for luxuries, then in his mind it would be fair. You can't base your judgements only by the conditions in your own society.

True, but I meant this question for Old Man. I'm sure his expenses are not that low. That's why I said 50 cents.

	08-02-2003 09:28									#90
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK It's not as simple as just switching businessess. I'm sure such a vendor would like to get into the computer market but that's not going to happen.

So because the vendor can't get into a more profitable business, I should pay him more than he's willing to take for it? How's that fair to me?

And, please, share with me some of these crazy assumptions....