27-02-2001 15:39									#1
	The farm/condensor/soil enrichener thing Support Apolyton

In many threads is posted that the most efficient terraforming is farm/condensor/soil enrichener on a rainy square, because the 6 nuts can
support 3 transcendi (4,5 with satellites).

This seems right only theoretically to me, because of the premises:
- You have to "produce" the transcendi. Even with Clone Vats it would take three turns, without a very long time.
- You would need two surplus nuts with the Clone Vats for pop growth, so, of the first farm/condensor/soil enrichener square remained only 4 nuts.
- You would need hab domes for the pop growth, which come very late in game. Normally the game is over around 20 turns later.
- You would have to produce a lot of satellites.

So, for a blind research game, the possibility to really use this squares in the proper game seem to come so late that it couldn't be used in the right way.

Even with directed research (which I never do), You would need a lot of tech (Clone Vats, terraforming techs, hab domes, the tech to have transcendi etc) that it would be a very late game thing.

So my question is: Is there really a way for feeding transcendi from a farm/condensor/soil enrichener square (especially in blind research game), or is it only a nice theory fairytale?

	27-02-2001 16:05									#2
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well surely the point of this "strategy" is to take your existing large bases and turn them into specialist cities while using the nutrient rich squares to support the population. In this case there's no problem with hab domes/growing etc. Its just like a supply crawler/specialist city strategy.

	27-02-2001 18:58									#3
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Skand,

The mere mention of transcendi by default means this is a late game gambit wherein the game is already won or lost.

As pointed out by TheAuk, it really is best suited to a crawler driven approach wherein you've not wasted a worker onthe square hence a free 6 nutrients this in turn supports 3 specialists (most likely engineers in the mid game).

If you can not achieve a perpetual pop boom through SE choice or Cloning Vats then one also has the ability to pod boom and avoid the need for hab domes (warning this can be considered dubious). Say you have PTS then take two crawlers home to a newly formed base of size 3 and put into work harvesting mins from boreholes preferably or mines less preferably. Set size 3 base to strictly pod generation and send colony pods to the super science city. Pods are "b"'d to add a population point to the super science city. The extra nutrients from the crawler on the condensor/famr/soil enricher allow the necessary nutrient support. Repeat adnauseum until you get sick of the population growth. Every third pod from the pod supplying base destroys the 3 population base and gets put down again as the base site. Rehome the mineral crawlers to that base and repeat.

I write this full well knowing that many feel that exceedence of hab domes/ hab complexes by pod booming is dubious. I am not convinced one way or the other as it causes significant opportunity cost in the form of the benefits of having another base site from the colony pod. What this approach does tho' is allow for selected base growth (ie. super science cities) w/o necessarily having to have facilities and/or appropriate SE choices.

One last thing, at some point the game limits the amont of useful specialists. IIRC the number of useful (read librarian, technicians, engineers) specialists as opposed to psych (read doctors, empaths, transcendi) enhancing specialists is about 18.

	28-02-2001 15:10									#4
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Skanderberg,

While I admit that this tactic is usually one which only occurs after the game is in your hands, it does occur frequently enough that I have noticed it. I am a crawler / specialized base type player already, so I was already maximizing my terraforming for one commodity, and nuts and minerals had already long pushed energy out of my FOP considerations. The amazing output of a mid game base (pop 14-16, 10 Engineers) from mostly crawlered farm / condensors and 3 crawlered rocky / mine / road squares already impressed me. Soil enrichers allowing another specialist per square, and Transcendi with their huge increase in productivity over the already productive engineer made me sit up and take notice. I did some calculations, and discovered that in my typical late game situation the farm / Condensor / soil enricher actually produces more than the vaunted late game fungus (albeit with a much larger terraforming commitment). This could prove important in a game where you are limited by space, or one where you are trying to set a high score record.

	28-02-2001 15:29									#5
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Thanks for Your statements, which gave me some enlightments by this case.

Ogie: I dodn't do the most things considered as dubious, for example upgrading crawlers or overbuilding SP's.

But I confess to be a pod boomer.

The simple reason is i like to have big bases, and in blind research the hab domes come so late.

So I always build a "pod boom"-base near my science bases to boost their population. But I don't do this in the extreme case You describe, obliterating the base by building pods.

When I founded a base, I always develop it, and I do this with the pod boom base as well. The normal building queue of this base is:
crawler - colony pod - colony pod - base enhancement.

	28-02-2001 18:31									#6
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Skanderbeg, you should try it, it rocks!
Try it with the Hive and PTS: I'll never thank OO enough for that Idea.
As the Hive can't boom (I'm talking about SMAC, but also in SMAX his low energy makes GAs difficult), disbanding the last citizen and rebuilding with the PTS, gives you a new immediate size-3 base, the growth you didn't have to crank out pods fast and continuosly...
I named those bases Hive's Hatchery, Organs Fatory and the like...

	28-02-2001 18:43									#7
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Skand, et.al.

My thoughts on pod booming.

Arguements pro and con on pod booming as I understand them.

On the one hand use of pod booming to make large bases can have immediate positive effects to well established bases and can exceed hab limits as described above with the appearing disappearing base trick with PTS and aided by two crawlers. It allows good established base growth even under worst case situations i.e. Cyborgs running Police/green w/ no growth at all.

OTOH having these same pods put to use forming new bases adds geometric expansion possibilities vs. simple linear growth capability. I think tho' one realistically needs to understand the ability to put new bases into play. The methodology I described is best suited for a pod supplying base near the heart of your empire that can get a pod to your HQ/SSC within a turnor two forp opulation growth. Correspondingly it would take several if not many turns to plant this base onthe outskirts of your empire especially if your continent is already fully settled. If the continenet is fully settled then in that case the travel time needs to factor in trasnport time etc. and or use of more expensive chassis such as a foil pod or a needlejet pod both will then cause turn disadvantage (caveat once fusion is in play foil pods becomes a bargain with a free pressure dome). In this case I think that due to the short productiontimes and the short transport times an arguement can be made that pod booming to the SSC has some upsides.

Exceedence past hab limits tho' still is the crux of the arguement as to whether or not the tactic is legit.

In attempting to describe these tactics I lay them out as I know them best with neither an attempt to endorse dubious play methods or not. I leave that to the individual to make moral judgements as to whether they think a given tactic is legit or otherwise. Similar to my discussions regarding crawler upgrade and cash in. I do strongly beleive tho' that when one enters into thelarger gaming community either through Multiplay or when claiming results for comparison with other players it is vital that the player either abstain from dubious behavior in the case of MP or at a minimum be up front with others as to tactics that may have been employed when doing comparison/challenge type games.

Good luck, hopefully some of the things discussed allow you to specialize some of your bases earlier in the game.

Ps. Mario we cross posted. Not a prob bud. Glad to be of service. Maybe one day I'll cross over and register at ACOL and test the waters there in MP. My MP is extremely limited so no doubt I'll have a waxing or two to take.
Og
[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited February 28, 2001).]