08-02-2003 21:54									#91
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I've lost all trust that I struggled to maintain earlier in this administration. I would support this war if there were another president.

	08-02-2003 22:33									#92
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There isn't much in the mainstream media about this, but here is something about the history of such laws, including the first Patriot Act

www.truthout.org/docs_02/04.03D.JVB.Patriot.htm

Appearantly these types of laws have been passed as far back as 1798 and always the governent went beyond the intent of the law. The Patriot 2 would be the worst yet though.

	08-02-2003 22:38									#93
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If this piece of sh1t passes, I wonder if the Justice Department will work to "exile" members of the KKK (which is an illegal terrorist organization). I'd be curious to see if this happens because I'm sure Republicans wouldn't want to alienate their voting constituency in the South.

	08-02-2003 22:54									#94
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I'm sure members of the KKK would be included in the definition of terrorist, but I doubt if they go after them.

The way I understand it you could be labeled a terrorist for protesting a war that the US is in by the first Patriot Act. By Patriot Act 2 you could have your citizenship stripped and you could be sent to Guantanamo Bay with the other political prisoners without due process and without the government showing probable cause to any judge.

	08-02-2003 23:03									#95
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Nahhh, I'm sure they'd rather recruit KKK members to help form up the "Patriot Brigades" they'll no doubt want to send into communities to make sure there are no terrorist groups there.

And Duncan, that's my understanding of the reading as well.

Pretty much, anybody Ashcroft "says" is a terrorist, is a terrorist.

If you meet behind closed doors, you are suspect (no telling what sorts of subversive, anti-american plots you might be cooking up). Thus....wiretapping and survellience without the "hassle" of having to get judicial approval.

If you disagree with the government, how much of a Patriot are you really? And, "you're either with us, or with the terrorists."

Seems they want to make that a reality.

Once again, to the goose-stepping b@stards who proposed this crap, all I can say is c'mon down, y'all.....SC did it once, and we're feisty enough to do it again.

Bring it!

-=Vel=-

	08-02-2003 23:12									#96
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Here are the top "Law" headlines this morning on CNN.com.....interesting. Sad and disgusting, but interesting. Not one peep about the Patriot Act, part deux.

• Harris: Tried to hit SUV, not husband
• Schools risk funding if they bar prayers

And as an aside, for the first time in my life, and a thing I never thought I would react to here in the United States, I heard the sound of a police siren go by the house, and it brought with it a tiny edge of unease.

I wondered where they were going, and found myself questioning their motives (and this, when the document we read last evening isn't even before congress yet).

I do not like that feeling.

-=Vel=-

	08-02-2003 23:16									#97
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I had a nightmare last night. I don't remember much, I never do, but I was put in prison. I just remember being afraid of being raped.

	08-02-2003 23:28									#98
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Today's mission, for me at least, is to write to all the mainstream news sites and ask them why there is no coverage on this issue. Join me in that effort if you feel strongly enough about it. It's something that NEEDS to get brought to light.

-=Vel=-

	08-02-2003 23:52									#99
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Ok, I will.

Does anyone know if there is any news on this on TV? I don't get cable.

	09-02-2003 00:17									#100
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There is something on the CBS website. Good for them.

	09-02-2003 00:53									#101
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The reason this is bad is not because Al Qaeda supporters don't deserve to be punished- it is that from what it seemed that it would be Ashcroft who determined if you were an Al Qaeda supporter or not, not the courts. If there is a US citizen who is suspected of funding Al Qaeda, then I think they should be arrested, tried before a court of law, and if found guilty thrown in jail. In fact I really don't see why you would let an Al Qaeda funder loose in a foreign country where they might be able to help their cells abroad. But if the government really thought exile was the best punishment for those people- I guess that'd be ok so long as they were tried first. What I have a problem with, however, is the executive branch unilaterally exiling US citizens without judicial review.

I very much doubt this would become law however. Even though you might not like the decisions SCOTUS makes somtimes, they do try to follow theConstitution and I just don't see how it is at all possible to reconicle this legislation with due process guarantees to US citizens

	09-02-2003 00:57									#102
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Shi Huangdi,

The first Patriot Act is unconstitutional and they haven't done anything about it. Why are you sure they will do anything about this one?

	09-02-2003 01:00									#103
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I don't think any cases have gone before SCOTUS yet regarding the Patriot Act

	09-02-2003 01:04									#104
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quote: In fact I really don't see why you would let an Al Qaeda funder loose in a foreign country where they might be able to help their cells abroad. But if the government really thought exile was the best punishment for those people- I guess that'd be ok so long as they were tried first.

Expatration in this context is stripping citizens of their citizenship, not just deporting them.

quote: Pretty much, anybody Ashcroft "says" is a terrorist, is a terrorist. If you meet behind closed doors, you are suspect (no telling what sorts of subversive, anti-american plots you might be cooking up). Thus....wiretapping and survellience without the "hassle" of having to get judicial approval.

Unfortunately, this is already law by Patriot Act I.

	09-02-2003 01:15									#105
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SH,

The DoJ is already using the law. Damage is being done. Can you imagine what they could do before SCOTUS did anything about this next law? That is if they did anything at all.

	09-02-2003 01:20									#106
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The DoJ arrested hundreds of immigrants and never even released their names. Not to justify that in any way, but if Patriot 2 passes there will be hundreds of US citizens treated this way as well. SCOTUS will do nothing.

	09-02-2003 01:21									#107
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We might have an answer on what SCOTUS thinks of some aspects of these laws this year. There are few cases that have a good chance of getting to SCOTUS that are related to immigrant rights.

	09-02-2003 01:32									#108
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I'm not finding a lot of information, but it seems that the ACLU is winning some cases in the lower courts, and the DoJ is also winning some.

	09-02-2003 01:35									#109
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Pretty much.
http://www.aclu.org/court/court.cfm?ID=10834&c=200

	09-02-2003 01:46									#110
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Thanx Ramo. I just downloaded a report buy the ACLU about that.

Dang, I knew mrmitchell sounded familiar. He gets his name from A. Mitchell Palmer, the Atorney General responsible for the Plamer Raids of 1919.

	09-02-2003 01:59									#111
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Good news on CBS.....I've written to CNN, NBC, and ABC, passed the link to PBS.org along, called the local paper here, and the local tv stations. Got assurances (almost gleeful assurances, actually) that there most definitely would be coverage on the issue.

Word's getting out, and at least in this little corner of the world, I'd like to think maybe I helped it along a tad.

I don't know who the hell leaked the document, but I regard that person as a hero. He, no doubt, risked his a$$ (at the very least professionally, and perhaps even personally/physically) to get it to the media. If we ever learn his name, it should be remembered.

Let's show 'em what Patriots really are....

-=Vel=-

	09-02-2003 02:15									#112
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There are two US citizens who are being held as "enemy combatants." They are being held indefinitely and without due process. I didn't know they could do that yet.

	09-02-2003 02:17									#113
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Is being anti-American grounds for Impeachment? God I hope so....

-=Vel=-

	09-02-2003 02:22									#114
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quote: There are two US citizens who are being held as "enemy combatants." They are being held indefinitely and without due process. I didn't know they could do that yet.

It's illegal by the Patriot Act. Of course, it would be unconstitutional even if it were not illegal.

	09-02-2003 02:30									#115
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Having thought it over for a bit, I have changed my mind. I now believe that the "Patriot" act's strengthening does not go far enough. They left some important stuff out, and I think these things should be strongly considered as additions to the legislation:

* Cash rewards should be offered to good, patriotic citizens who "turn in" their neighbors suspected of terrorist activities. This would reward our loyal patriots, while getting rid of the scumbag usurpers and dissenters, and we can be sure that no one would ever in any way seek to abuse the system.

* Tracking. Not nearly enough emphasis has been placed on tracking the movement of these dangerous elements in our society. Therefore, military checkpoints should be set up along all major interstates, at intervals of no less than one every thirty miles, and each city should have at least one "Patriot Brigade" for every 20,000 citizens. These patriots would have the authority to break down the doors of suspected dissenters, free-thinkers, and other folks that posed a threat to our "national security" and drag them away to be locked up indefinitely, no warrant needed, and certainly no involvement from that nettlesome Judiciary.

* Tracking part two - To further help the loyal patriots of the nation track down the rabble rousers, Homeland Defense Tattoo Parlors should be established in every city with a population greater than 50,000. The tattoos would be barcode-like in their structure, and this would enable automated checkpoints to be established that would "scan" the comings and goings of each person. Very handy.

* A Patriot Youth Brigade should be established to teach America's Youth how to be good little Naz....erm....Patriots, what signs to look for when attempting to spot would-be trouble makers, and detailed instructions on how to handle any hint of dissent.

I think you will find these proposed additions quite rational, and we DO hope you enjoy your stay in the land of the "free."

-=Vel=-
And remember....if we don't do this, the terrorists win!

	09-02-2003 02:51									#116
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The draft is near (The Pat II is near)
Run for the border
Always live in fear
Only to keep order

-LoA

	09-02-2003 03:12									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov "They will never be able to go that far." -- some German in 1933.

"We're a civilized people you know." --some German Jew in 1934.

	09-02-2003 03:44									#118
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Well i was, for a second going to add my two pence; of how as a non-american(from uk) your countries recent foreign policy has resulted in myself and friends/family etc looking real carefuly at the labels on things we buy and not buying american goods. Of how it now looks like this sort of policy(or the thinking behind it) has trickled into your domestic policy. And generaly making some statement about 'the end is nigh' etc.
And then i stoped and thought that maybe just blameing it all on 'america' was just not cricket(to use an english saying ).
I can't think of any government that has actualy acheived what they are really, in theory, set-up to do - govern for the good of the people. Show me one that wasn't corrupt, didn't mislead or lie and wasn't full of 'public servants' who weren't, as a sum of the whole, out for their own interests.
So i don't blame you 'america' for the worlds ill's......but i'm still not going to buy anything from you until your elected government stops behaving so badly.
My current thought is that as individual's in society we can only try to fiddle our tax as best we can, learn to do everything for ourselves like make food/build houses and live a bit like Grizzly Adams or Jerimah Johnson, thus starving the wicked people in the world of jobs involved in ruleing over us all. History has shown that humans are too selfish to do the job properly.

Right then - i'm off to find a good site for a log-cabin and a vegetable garden

Oh yes and for those who can't/won't do this then i fear for you and wish you and your children well

	09-02-2003 03:51									#119
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I don't know what that has to do with this topic, but your agrarian society propaganda is noted.

	09-02-2003 04:17									#120
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK I don't know what that has to do with this topic, but your agrarian society propaganda is noted.

Well i think i might have being trying to say to the worried parties that it'll be alright or if not then run for the hills. A patern that has worked throughout history i think, well we are all still here anyway