08-02-2003 05:19									#1
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I have sent out screenshots to aid this discussion. I have been thinking about city sites, in conjunction with where we want to go in the game. I think we want to get across the straight as soon as possible and expand in that direction. Expansion is limited on our continent. And that territory is geographically closer to our capitol. Also, to keep GS happy in the long term, or to co-opt their assistance for overseas wars, we will need to give a little. Therefore, I have also thought about what we are building now and might give up.

I have also thought about the time it takes to produce settlers, which as we know, slows down other forms of production. So, I am proposing an initial 9 city plan for our portion of Estonia. 4 in the north, 1 on the chokepoint, and 4 in the south.

Elipolis on the chokepoint is the agreed-to next city. (btw I think it's build queue should be worker, temple, palace -as a hold for a possible wonder.)

Then we have some choices. C in the south would complete the border - but will only get one 2 food tile to start. We would need workers to start clearing jungle. Also - the distance from the capitol is going to mean poor shield production due to corruption. But - it would complete the boder, and on the first expansion, get the iron.

Note that I have marked the far eastern city near the iron with blue. That was on the GS map - but it will be a real slow city. It does not have a single 2 food tile to work with. Other than getting iron in the first grab, it has little going for it. I don't think we should bother with it.

We could also possible move C one tile to the north, where the '?' is. It will get the iron in the first grab, but has no 2 food tiles to start with. Will require jungle clearing. It also effectively gives up a couple of valuable grassland squares to GS.

The other choices in the south are A and B, both of which will get built eventually. These look like the best spots, unless we tried to fit another city in, in which case B has to move up or down a little. A will snag the whales after the first expansion, but B starts with two enhanced grassland squares. I'm leaning towards B so that in the early days it will not be competing with Elipolis for tiles - until our irrigation project is done up north.

So, let's move to the north. I have proposed two definite (x and y) and a third maybe (z) sites. Also, x may be moved one suare south, but that gets it off the lake. 'x' should also expand sufficiently to get the whales tile off shore.

I like 'y' as it will project culture across the straight - and when we do move across - a corresponding city on the far side within 3 tiles will ensure safe passage of ships and troops. This site can share the grassland squares.

'z' is there if we feel we want 4 cities up north. Incidentally, there are 45 tiles in North Estonia, including the chokepoint tile, the city sites, and the lake, and the desert.

Now- as to build order. My suggestion:

Elipolis, c, y, b, a, x.

I say c next, as we need to mark the border, and start the growth to the iron. Even if it will be slow growing. We will need our immortals sooner or later.

So - to tie in my earlier comments - and this has been raised in various discussions with GS - if and when we expand off the continent with their assistance - in return - we could possibly give up some land and cities. Therefore, I only want to invest in two cities in the far south - not three.

Also - with the intent to expand to the other continent, I do not see the need to mega-pack our cities in. Let's save our settlers for the other continent. Hence the 9 city plan. If we were to go to 10, I would build 'z' long before 'd' down by the iron.

Comments, please.

	08-02-2003 06:06									#2
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Nice plan Beta. My only suggestion concerns the future site of city "X." Your "Southern Plan" looks good to me.

Concerning City "X": I think it should be moved 2 tiles south, 1 tile southwest (ie, just north of the eastern hill). Once the city expands it will still get the northern-most whale tile.

Where you have "X" at presently, IMO, is just to close to The Voice. Leting city "X" have access to the lake is nice, but not mandatory and we shouldn't choke our capital by basically having city "X" located practically on top of it.

	08-02-2003 12:27									#3
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what about that map Jon sent? That is where we want our southern cities is it not?

	08-02-2003 21:01									#4
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The three southern cities are the key discussion. Dissidentville is already in. 'C' is the next red dot over on Jon's map and is in the same spot as the plan. GS would not mind if we moved it to C?.

And 'D' is the city I am proposing we not build. That plan also had 6 cities south of the chokepoint, excluding the chokepoint city. There are 33 tiles that will be ours in South Estonia according to Jon's map, 34 if you include the fish. 6 of those are mountain tiles, a lot is jungle. I appreciate that there are coastal tiles, but at 1 food per tile, each city will only be able to use one or two at the most (depending on mountain tile useage) before they are at no growth or starvation.

Also - this was GS' plan for us. They picked the city sites on our side of the border as well - if I am not mistaken.

I am proposing we don't crowd our cities on the land we do have, and plan for an early as possible expansion - forced or otherwise- across the stright.

	14-02-2003 08:54									#5
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Both cities produce temples this turn, and then The Voice is 5 turns or so (I think) to build a settler. Miller Town will be a few after that.

Elipolis is a given. What is next?

(i)The southern city - C- - and I think we do move it over to get the iron on the first go - Dissidentville may take awhile to get a temple in, and by the GS may have a city down on the other side to grab that iron source.

The other option is to put down two southern border cities - C and D, but if you revisit my rationale, I don't think it is worth it.

(ii)Another city in the north. X or Y

(iii)Another city in the south - probably A

	14-02-2003 09:14									#6
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I agree that we need to expand

and yes, GS started the debate

in my view the current position we have already given some

I think we need mapmaking and the iron, and than accross the straight

Jon Miller

	15-02-2003 19:20									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller I agree that we need to expand and yes, GS started the debate in my view the current position we have already given some I think we need mapmaking and the iron, and than accross the straight Jon Miller

I agree! Including that we have given some to GS already. But that being said, what are your views on the next city builds - and in particular, where C (the southern city should go) and if we should build D.

That is the discussion we need to have. Diss and I need all our input. Maybe when we get close I will run a poll.

Also - when do we build Y, the city across the straight. I was thinking after C, as Y would be a logical jumping off spot to get to the other continent. Also, building there will project our influence across the straight, and assure us of at least one city build spot on the other side that we could settle without having to get overtly offensive with Lux, if they expanded this way.

Also - letting the cities get to sixe 4 before producing settlers means we can pump out the next two settlers fairly quickly. Or do we want a couple of spearmen as well. When we go over to settler production this turn, I will revisit the queues and post the options.

	15-02-2003 22:30									#8
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Ok, I agree with building city "C" then (hopefully) building city "Y" on the other side of the straight - if we can pull it off.

Do we have map making yet?

	15-02-2003 22:32									#9
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And Jon is right - we should think about linking up some iron.

	15-02-2003 23:05									#10
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Yes I do want to link up some iron for defensive reasons.

Even if we don't go to war it is nice to have a few immortals hanging around.

Chokpoint city next. After that...

That last map you sent wasn't all that great if I recall. We may need another one with more letters. And we can make a poll when we get close. But we still have to start work on a settler first .

	15-02-2003 23:38									#11
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Definately - Elipolis (Chokepoint) should be the next city. Then I say, "C" (Betaville?) followed by "Y" (by what name - Wittlich City? )

	15-02-2003 23:51									#12
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I was kind of looking forward to naming city Y. Which - you may have misunderstood me Witt - I think it should be on our side of the straight - but projecting our territory onto the other point of land. Then if need be, we can plunk a city down there as well. That, along with Elipolis, will give us pretty good control over the sea lanes in this part of the world.

I'm not sure what is going to be left of Lux by the time we get over there. If you look at the Saved Game Thread - it looks like GoW declared war on Lux as well.

I agree Diss - another map would be good. Wish I knew how to get printed numbers or sympols onto the map using MS Paint. Any ideas?

	16-02-2003 01:09									#13
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Ah ok, I understand your meaning Beta. Concerning the naming of city "Y," - Go for it Beta I was just placing some suggestions, that's all.

	21-02-2003 05:22									#14
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OK - I am sending out new city site maps - north and south. For the south map I used the original map sent by jon as the ratified border agreement. Cities are in red. I have numbered them for discussion purposes.

I have added my proposed plan in yellow - with the cities lettered and corresponding to the discussion piece at the top of this thread.

To re-cap. Elipolis is a given. the decision is what next.

Although it will be a dreadfully slow grower - I say C. It gets iron, and it stakes out our border claim. I have moved its location so we can get the iron with the first nine tiles. Otherwise we will need to consider using a settler for the point of land south of the iron - and IMHO - that would be a waste. But- if you disageree, please speak up.

C will also require only one new road square - marked 'new' in yellow.

Please enter your ideas and thoughts. If there is concensus - great. If not, we poll.

With the turn that is coming up - The Voice is producing a settler in 1 turn. It will then take him 3 turns of moves to make it to the chokepoint - and then one to build.

Miller Town will produce the settler the turn after. Our warrior should accompany him.

As both these cities will be at size two, we should be able to produce another pair of settlers in 7 and 10 turns respectively.

	21-02-2003 06:21									#15
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Yes, I see your point Beta. My vote also goes for "C." (after Elioplis (chokepoint), of course)

	21-02-2003 07:05									#16
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C is what I was also thinking. That is why I moved the worker over there.

	21-02-2003 07:20									#17
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I would rather go with eth 4 and 5

we get mreo cities that way

and 5 is bilt right next to the iron (so that is nto an issue)

Jon Miller

	21-02-2003 07:21									#18
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we get more cities., and more territory

Jon Miller

	21-02-2003 08:17									#19
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Thanks for summing-up your response Jon. The "dyslexic" statements were hard to follow!

...But how does it give us more cities when 1 settler can only build 1 city?

	21-02-2003 09:18									#20
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Witt - Jon is proposing building the three border cities as shown on the border treaty. Cities number 4 and 5 - the red ones. My objection is that they will be useless cities growth wise - until a pile of jungle is cleared. On the other hand - it does maximize the territory grab from GS. Then again, we don't want to be too close and get culturally absorbed.

I still think C, but I will give it some more thought.

We could go with 4 and 5, along with A/1 and B. We definitely do not want three cities up south of Elipolis. Two will suffice. That would total 5 cities in the south - as opposed to the border treaty's 6. But we can still get away with 5.

Hmmm - Jon has me thinking about it now... time for bed.

	22-02-2003 05:39									#21
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Harry, Eli- any comments?

To all - I see the decision tree looking like this.

Elipolis for sure.

Then, do we:
1. Build south
2. Build north

(a northern city will be much more productive!!)

If 1. South

Then is it:
1.1 Three cities across the border - Dissidentville, #4, and #5 as per the map.
(1.1.1 #4 is next, 1.1.2 #5 is next)

1.2 Two cities across the border - Dissidentville and 'C'. So see is next

1.3 Or - build another non-border southern city. A or B.

If 2. North

Then is it:
2.1 W
2.2 X
2.3 Y

To me the 4 viable options are

1.1.1 #4 is next - still no iron
1.1.2 #5 is next - this city will never grow, and will be a b1tch to connect.
1.2 C - gives up some border tiles, but saves a settler.
2.3. Y - this city can be built next turn - and will be productive immediately. It will project influence across the straight. Corruption will be minimal.

I can't decide between 1.2 ie C, or 2.3 ie Y.

mmmmm - 1.2 C. Oh that hurts. Y is next though.

	23-02-2003 00:44									#22
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OK - ignore the above since I made the executive decision discussed in the moves thread. Y is getting built next turn. Elipolis in three turns.

In my continuing push to get Lux to send its remaining gold to us - I propose we call Y Luxview. And we tell them we are doing it in their honor. (we can always change it later when they are gone. )

OK - now we do need to decide on the border cities. See the city planning map sent earlier.

2 of them - Dissidentville is built - plus C.

3 of them - Dissidentville plus #4 and #5.

After revisiting the map again - I am undecided.

Jon's comment about maximizing territory could be the key here. We will use up another settler - but we gain another city and probably 6-8 more tiles of territory - as opposed to building only C. It also creates a more delineated border line.

If we go with the three city plan, then we should probably put city #5 in next to get the iron, and we need a road project to connect it.

The alternative is to somehow rush a temple in Dissidentville to expand its borders and get the other iron. But Using city #5 is probably quicker. We could use another worker btw. The improvement jobs are starting to get backed up.

	23-02-2003 00:51									#23
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Both plans have their merits. I guess if we're going for more cities/more territory under our control, then the 3 city option sounds like the best choice.

	26-02-2003 02:42									#24
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OK - I am resurrecting this discussion as well. We have 6 cities left to build, as I see it. According to the map, they are:

North - W and Z.

South - A, B, 4, and 5.

As per the discussion in the moves thread - I am more than convinced now with the granary builds in The Voice and Miller Town. I think we only need the two of them. That should allow us to produce sufficient settlers for the above, and into the future. I will try and map out a schedule incorporating the two granaries and accelerated pop growth.

Also - I am convinced on the three city border plan, as per the ratified border agreement that jon hammered out with GS, is the best approach.

Do we have concensus on those points?

So, what order do we do them in.

I suggest:

5, Z, A, W, B, 4.

And one note - W maybe should be one tile further to the south as per Witt's earlier recommendation.

My rational for B and 4 last is that they are currently bordering Portia, the Lux capitol, which should expand shortly, and would cut into the land we would claim with these two cities. It may also ease GS' concerns if we are not building up too much in the south.

Comments?

Last edited by Beta on 26-02-2003 at 18:52

	26-02-2003 04:17									#25
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I agree on the granaries for goth Millertown and The voice.

i'll have to decide on the city placement and order later.