08-02-2003 11:05									#1
	Superhighways now! Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Last poll, we the people, in order to form a more perfect highway system agreed to raise taxes to fund the project We currently have 1694 gold and 6 cities building superhighways. Only Valencia (150/200) will complete them in the next 2 turns.

To completely finish the superhighways in the 6 cities building them this turn, it would cost 1538 gold. To rush everything to where it would take 2 rounds to build them it would take 1038 gold. If we left them alone and used the taxes elsewhere, only 2 cities would finish in fewer than 6 turns. I believe the best use of the people's tax money would be to fund the projects so that they all finish in 2 turns

*ponders leading the people in a chant of "What do we want!*

	08-02-2003 13:31									#2
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I voted for 2 turns, but I think the city planning minister should take a detailed look. If there are any cities where we could deliver a demanded freight next turn - rush the superhighway in 1 turn. Any cities with a low base trade and no freights being delivered soon - wait 3 or more turns.

By fitting the rush building to individual circumstances we can probably spend less money and get a bigger return.

RJM at Sleepers

	08-02-2003 19:00									#3
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I voted for 2 turns as well. If we set science lower in 1868 to raise taxes for this purpose, what are we waiting for?

Besides, it's an inefficient use of high-trade cities to leave them building 'white goods' for several turns - when they could be building Freight (or further cash/science improvements if they have no supplied commodities).

	08-02-2003 19:43									#4
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Hmm, after sleeping on this, it sounds a bit too much like cityplanner poll.

I probably should have gone with my original choices of
1) all of it - would give 1 turn
2) 60% of it - would give 2 turns
3) none of it -

or maybe but the actual gold amounts...

O well - hopefully I'm getting better at staying within my cabinet position's sphere of influence

	08-02-2003 19:59									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man I voted for 2 turns as well. If we set science lower in 1868 to raise taxes for this purpose, what are we waiting for? Besides, it's an inefficient use of high-trade cities to leave them building 'white goods' for several turns - when they could be building Freight (or further cash/science improvements if they have no supplied commodities).

I agree whole-heartedly

quote: declassified by SCG from the 1868 report 2) Raise the taxes 10-20% for a maximum of 2 turns at the expense of science. This is to aid in the production of superhighways that are highly demanded (even in the science poll). After 2 turns, return the taxes to normal, as there is much support to keep the science rate high.

Our president did leave it a little longer than 2 turns, but then early on, the military requisitioned a good portion of it (in the conquest of Nepal), and that may have been the reason only 1 superhighway got produced last turn.

*ponders having a little... chat... with the head of the Senate Appropriation's Committee*

either that, or we need to see about weakening the environmentalist lobby for wanting all those feasibility studies done before building the highways




*half expects to see Immortal Wombat to make a cameo after that comment *

	08-02-2003 21:19									#6
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maybe rush the ones that will take the longest, but i can't see spending 1000g for this project right now. Some at 2 turns, but not all

	08-02-2003 21:34									#7
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Two turns, I want superhighways!

	08-02-2003 22:09									#8
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The money we spend rushing the SH will be repaid by the additional income they provide. Again, what else are we saving the money for?

	08-02-2003 22:17									#9
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defensive improvements in naples, kazan, etc maybe? I thought those were still on the agenda

	08-02-2003 22:48									#10
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following the 2 turn plan would still leave over 600 gold for building other improvements (which are quite a bit cheaper - its only 76 gold to finish the city walls (42/80) in Kazam for example, and would be 25 gold to finish Naple's cavalry (40/60, 10 production) next turn. We should be able to do both with our current treasury Not to mention finishing the superhighways would come close to doubling the net gold and science of several cities, allowing for much more flexability afterwards

	09-02-2003 00:19									#11
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alright, you've sold me on the idea, superhighways in two turns it is

	09-02-2003 00:28									#12
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quote: Originally posted by H Tower alright, you've sold me on the idea, superhighways in two turns it is

Should we notify the Minister of City Planning?

	09-02-2003 01:06									#13
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probably, not that me voting against the idea would have caused the poll to go the other way

	09-02-2003 02:10									#14
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Perhaps the Minister of Trade could identify which cities originated Freight that will be delivered in the next few turns. That way, we would know which cities would provide the greatest benefits for rushing Superhighways. The others could go along building with shields to reduce the rush cost when it's their turn to deliver Freight.

	09-02-2003 02:50									#15
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear Perhaps the Minister of Trade could identify which cities originated Freight that will be delivered in the next few turns. That way, we would know which cities would provide the greatest benefits for rushing Superhighways. The others could go along building with shields to reduce the rush cost when it's their turn to deliver Freight.

Of the 7 remaining cities with superhighways currently in its build queue, Avila, Cadiz, and St Pratski offer tradable goods, preferably to be built sooner rather than waiting 7, 4 and 6 turns to build. Valencia has a demanded cloth freight idling outside Seville (and will be built in 2 turns anyway). Seville has a stray Oil freight and will grow in 2 turns, and should grow again in 3 turns if we celebrate (city size has some effect on tradable commodites, though haven't figured out if growing will unblock anything or not as yet in this case). WhereItsAt town also is the subject of a freight discussion and has a poll of its own. And Pamplona has a domestic trade route which can be used per suggestion in the WIAtown poll for future trading.

	09-02-2003 03:31									#16
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Pardon my confusion. We seem to be discussing similar subjects on several threads and it is hard to keep track.

I've posted some proposed City-Planner recomendations on the "City-Planner Recommendations" thread that should help.

	09-02-2003 04:23									#17
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OFFICIAL STATEMENT OF THE SUPREME MILITARY COMMANDER:

It's the superhighways, stupid. Build them in 2 turns, and with the rest of the cash we get this turn and the next, we can upgrade our defenses.

	09-02-2003 04:37									#18
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 OFFICIAL STATEMENT OF THE SUPREME MILITARY COMMANDER: It's the superhighways, stupid. Build them in 2 turns, and with the rest of the cash we get this turn and the next, we can upgrade our defenses.

It's not that simple. Some places are building things where we would lose 50% of shields to switch from. The Minister of Trade wants Freight and Transports. Some places are prevented from celebrating unless they get some happiness assistance. The Minister of War needs (I presume) for cities in some places to keep building military units, and I recall a request for Cruisers, Subs, and/or Fighters.

From another direction, there are many cities that would not benefit much from Superhighways, and others that are just too small and require some basics to get beyond 3 shields per turn. Some of the best candidate cities for Freight don't have any available (or don't have demanded ones available). Others that are building them have a lot of shields to contribute and the rush cost will be much less in just a couple of turns.

Especially, the Superhighways won't really pay off until there is Freight to be delivered from them. Why spend gold to rush Superhighways when they won't be used in a Freight delivery for many turns?

Yes, Suoerhighways will increase existing trade arrows. But enough that it is worth spending 350 gold to rush them when it will cost half that in only a few turns?

	09-02-2003 05:50									#19
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The cost of rushing items is measured not only against the how much less gold it would cost to build it x number of turns later, but what else is gained and lost by not building them. By building them, and increasing all the trade arrows (more gold and science and happiness) With the 20% tax rate, the straight gold gain is going to be somewhat minimal, but it will also increase science significantly, and happiness as well, meaning being able to use more production-heavy areas without elvi and especially that we would then be able to build more items rather than waiting for the superhighways to be completed. Several of the cities can produce large-return freights, that would in turn bring more gold and science that also will be absent if we hold off on completing them.

One example would be Avila (not currently proposed to be rushed by Minister Cavebear). Delaying 2 turns would save about 100 gold, but would lose 50-60 science and a Gems freight in the same time frame. Yes, we could build the freight later, but then we will have lost a food freight for a wonder/SS or time towards a university or bank.

Avila - Cost: 270 gold, 7 turns
57 trade, 64 if we remove elvi, 72 current max (64, 72), grows 2x - (69, approx 80), max 34 shields production next turn, 22 if celebrating
superhighways: increase +8 (workers), approx +18 (trade) so would be roughly 100 trade arrows and might reach 110

Smaller trading cities would lose less science, but usually take more turns to build the superhighways as well, so more time is lost, rather than gold, and the overall science loss is similar

And we did, after all, raise taxes with the intention of using them for superhighways

	09-02-2003 06:43									#20
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OK, I discovered I was arguing aganst something that makes sense merely because it wasn't my idea. I'm still reluctant to use up all our gold for Freight that won't pay off for more turnss than SCG implies, but I agree that Trade goods are important. Gems from Avila to Durrow or Nanking make sense, if they can be delivered safely.

But let's not fool ourselves that the Freight will be delivered in just a turn or two, and there is a significant risk the Freight won't get there. And if we want to rush the Superhighways for 350 gold, we are not using that gold for other benefits (or military emergencies and bribes).

I tend to prefer to have a balance of gold not less than 2,000. It is important to have cash-in-hand. I really hate losing cities to surprise attacks when a few hundred gold would have saved them.

Can we compromise by giving the Chinese "Automobile" so that we can send them Oil Freights immediately and let the Gems and Silks come just a couple of turns later? President Ixnay can then time the rush-builds of Superhighways to meet the demand of Freight deliveries, and we will make best use of existing city shield production.



Does that seem balanced?

	09-02-2003 08:14									#21
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Not a rant, its an explanation

Just so it's clear, I don't advocate rushing the superhighways this turn - that would cost our entire treasury, I advocate rushing an airport and changing back to a superhighway. If the city produces 20+ shields, they will be completed in 2 turns (and if i can impose more micromanaging on our great president, increasing food and trade as much as possible while still maintaining 20 shields in those cities unless able to celebrate ). And Pamplona is the most expensive one at 284 gold.

Also, many of my suggestions for extra transports are for the express purpose of ensuring that they are delivered same turn, which greatly minimizes risk.

example: A transport in Amazon Island would go to Vigo, unload. A transport in Vigo takes that freight to Malaga and unloads. A transport in Malaga takes the freight to St Pratski or Cordoba and unloads. The freight takes the train to the ferry in Pamplona, then on to Cadiz and unloads. The freight then takes the train either to ports in Obladi for delivery to the Carthagenians or the proposed one for ferrying to the city proposed SE of Granada. It then takes the train all the way to freeport for delivery to the Chinese. Ideally, if it takes more than 7 spaces to get to the foreign coast to unload, we have a 2nd transport under escort waiting 7 spaces away so that we can unload from one transport to the next and let that transport

I realize that getting that set up may take a quite a while, and for most civs probably will never get completed. but if it ever does, each domestic transport ends its turn in a city for maximum protection, delivery transports either end in a city or under escort and the freight is delivered same turn



Like i said when i made my request, I know - its a bit of a wish list



As for gifting the Chinese with the Automobile, I would greatly like the input of the Minister of War on that one. I don't like the idea of the Chinese trading it to other civs and having battleships bombarding our coasts.

As for having less than 2000 gold, I'm not used to having an atrocious reputation and being snuck attacked each round (that and i come from an exclusive 2.42 background). Therefore, my strategies have developed from that background. I connect everything for 1-turn movement, even if it is multiple continents, both for defense and greater trade, and reinvest what i have to improve further. You have to spend money to improve quickly, and superhighways have some of the most powerful benefits of all the non-wonders, even without freight deliveries I usually can move enough units from one side of my empire to the other in time of war for the existing turn and then raise taxes for the next turn to compensate. Given that we are trying to go for AC, it just makes sence, at least to me , to put in practice much of what has worked for me in the past Anyway, I have tried to minimize my trade requests from the war-torn regions (no sense in requesting Kazam to build a marketplace and freights when there might not be a city left if we did ) Naples has apparently been a nice place to drop off gold freights, hense the request for extra transports (and escorts) to get freight there. The side effect of that is that if we are sending freights up there, I see the potential for taking the train to Quinsay and getting a quick drop off in Mongolia for the trade payoffs, especially when our commodities are demanded there Anyway, just thought my perspective might help understanding my requests


And if we do gift Automobile , yes, it seems balanced. If we don't, finishing the superhighways seems most prudent

	09-02-2003 10:14									#22
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I don't think giving Automobile to the Chinese is all that good of an idea. The potential increase in trade doesn't really offset the fact that we have poor coastal defense. I shudder to think what might happen if they gave it to the Mongols or Celts!

	09-02-2003 10:33									#23
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If trade is so valuable, think of all the idling oil Freights we could send to the Chinese, who have been good trade recipients for us..

	09-02-2003 11:13									#24
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear If trade is so valuable, think of all the idling oil Freights we could send to the Chinese, who have been good trade recipients for us..

Its certainly a goal of both the Science minister and myself to procede with that sort of trading However, last turn, the people spoke in 2 different polls that they would rather have the non-demanded freight idle rather than trade with them . If the domestic trade between WIA town (no SHs yet) and CAPITOL (SHs) proves beneficial, perhaps we can try a town with SHs to a civ like the chinese (rep govt, large cities) and get a decent payoff as well

	09-02-2003 11:15									#25
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Then maybe the question should be put to the Citizens in another way that shows the benefits better.

	09-02-2003 11:24									#26
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Do we want Mongol Battleships showing up in a few turns? I say no to trading Automobile to the Chinese.

I voted for the superhighways in 2 turns. Some of the military upgrades can wait, and we will benefit more from the trade increases. No point in rushing them any sooner.

	09-02-2003 11:36									#27
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Wouldn't several good trade deliveries be worth one Mongol ship attack that would be defeated anyway? Just asking...

	09-02-2003 12:42									#28
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mongol battleships would do an excellent job against our cities, we have no costal fortresses to defend with.

	12-02-2003 05:15									#29
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Considering the excellent points made against gifting Automobile to anybody (because of Battleships), I now decline to recommend my own suggestion.

The Oil Freights (as demanded goods) will have to wait until some AI develops it on their own. But when they do, we ought to be prepared to get what we can out of it.