08-02-2003 11:50									#1
	WhereItsAt town and its Oil Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

We currently have 33 freights, 30 of which are food or not demanded.

Recent polls have indicated that people for the most part want to only use demanded freight for trading. I propose for WhereItsAt town to make a small exception to that. As seen in the graphic below. WIA town is supplying 1 food per turn to Leon while one of its freight supply is sitting idle outside Seville to be used in wonderbuilding that has yet to commence. As all 3 of the commodities are currently blocked, food is the only option for freight at this time. As CAPITOL has completed its superhighways and is capable of 97 trade arrows, I propose we send the WIA freight to CAPITOL. We should be able to get a decent delivery amount for such a delivery, and if we give all the workers in Leon a paid holiday at time of delivery, we should be discontinue the food trade and replace it with an Oil trade. Leon has +5 food right now and no longer needs the food subsidy. As Beijing is size 12 and well roaded and the seat of a republic, there is danger of replacing one of CAPITOL's trade routes with WIA town.

The net result should be a decent freight delivery at a time when we don't have many freights to deliver, as well as making WIA town much more viable for the superhighways Minister Cavebear has earmarked in a few turns.

For our Minister of City Planning to consider - It would cost 200 gold to bring WIA town in line with the other 6 cities of 2 turns to completion, or 280 gold to complete them in one turn. Right now, a bank is 3 turns from completion and would bring in less additional gold, and less science than superhighways. If the delivery of the Oil freight is close to 200 gold, it may well be worth the switch in production plans

Attachment: wia trade.jpg
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	08-02-2003 19:05									#2
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I would think that even undemanded freight delivered to CAPITOL would pay enough to be worth doing. It's not just the cash, it's the beakers... and that Freight isn't adding any value now, idling.

	08-02-2003 20:51									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man I would think that even undemanded freight delivered to CAPITOL would pay enough to be worth doing. It's not just the cash, it's the beakers... and that Freight isn't adding any value now, idling.

I agree there, but I'd be a little careful trading with CAPITOL with large trade cities. We'd lose 30-50% of our recurring trade arrows for the trade routes because it would replace Beijing as a trading partner. (that could be as much as 18 trade arrows)

If WhereItsAt town can get a good delivery price, after we get a few more superhighways built, I'll put up a poll about sending undemanded freights to large cities with them that have no more than 2 foreign trade routes so that we don't lose the foreign routes, while still getting good payoffs

*tries his best to work with what the people have told them they want*

	08-02-2003 21:00									#4
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* MrWhereItsAt , oil mogul, steps in.

I wholeheartedly support the delivery of this oil to the capital of our great nation, er, CAPITOL. Not only will it create jobs in both cities, but this will cement further the business partnerships forfed between both cities.

And nothing at all to do with the fact that I will get even richer.

* MrWhereItsAt champs on his enormous cigar and wanders out

	08-02-2003 21:13									#5
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As an addendum to my last post - after the loss of the transport carrying gems,


*moment of silence*


we are down to 7 transports scattered much further than i would like. Even our island to island ferry between Cadiz and Pamplona seem to be at least 2 turns from being able to return to service. (Was that the transport that was lost?)

Also, at the moment we have no replacement transports planned according to preliminary reports from Minister Cavebear, so it appears much of our foreign trade has been curtailed for the moment.

Attachment: ferry cities.jpg
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	09-02-2003 04:13									#6
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How many turns do we feel we have left? If we are close to the end, then by all means, deliver to Capitol for the beaker bonus. If not, we should not risk losing that trade route to China, since we will benefit more from those extra trade arrows.

18 trade/turn at 50% science gives us 9 beakers *1.5 for science upgrades or 13 beakers a turn.

A caravan delivery for 200 gold and 200 beakers will make up for 15 turns of trade with China.

MWIA

Why do you think I kept building all those *cloth* caravans from WhereItsAt?

	09-02-2003 04:21									#7
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SCG - I wasn't aware that 7 Transports were not sufficient for good Freight movement. What are the nearest cities to the places you could most effectively use 2 more Transports? I'll try to get them into production, but I need to know where. I'll build them as close to those places as other demands allow.

	09-02-2003 05:13									#8
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear SCG - I wasn't aware that 7 Transports were not sufficient for good Freight movement. What are the nearest cities to the places you could most effectively use 2 more Transports? I'll try to get them into production, but I need to know where. I'll build them as close to those places as other demands allow.

For freight delivery every turn to China we would need the High Tower-Freeport railroad, and 2 staffed ferries (movement is >3 between the cities so ideally 2 for each ferry) and at least 1 transport in freeport. So for delivery to china, we need a minimum of 3 transports for delivery every other turn, and a minumum of 5 for every turn. One ferry is missing in action, and the other is understaffed (and seems to be bypassing rabbiton for avila or obladi atm)


We also need at least 1 transport, and preferably 2-3 for the islands north of our home island (Whale island, Vigo, Malaga and Whale island) because of the high enemy ship activity there. Safe delivery from Amazon island or Whale island requires 3 turns to get to the home island (Vigo->Malaga->St Pratski). We have one in St Pratski (not sure its been moved recently) and another under escort outside malaga, so is reasonably staffed.

For delivery north (Where the gold is demanded), it is 6-8 turns to destination. We currently have 2 transports up there, meaning about 6-8 turns for a delivery. using minimal ship chaining and escort really needs about 4 transports, and at least 1 (preferably 2) for dropping off by the mongol coastal cities.

If we want to trade with the Japanese, a couple transports operating near Barcelona (or a new city north of Barcelona) would greatly help. To trade with the Carthagenians, one in Obladi is needed.

If Capua (now on the build list) is going to build freights, one for that part of the country is needed as well, otherwise we are taking away from the 2nd ferry. If we trade with the Vikings or Celts, we are going to need transports to get there as well. or build a city north of High Tower and a railroad to Cremona, and a transport or 2 out of there.



Its a bit of a wish list, i know. But i really would like to at least have the 2 main ferries staffed (or the 2nd ferry travel distance shortened, reducing the need for transports). It would also help in troop movements.

	09-02-2003 05:29									#9
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Your reasons are noble and good. I think I can fit 2 more Transports into the mix right now.

Now if you could just simplify my life a little by telling me *where* you want the 2 Transports to be located...? Either 2 city names or 2 coordinates would help

	09-02-2003 06:07									#10
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear Your reasons are noble and good. I think I can fit 2 more Transports into the mix right now. Now if you could just simplify my life a little by telling me *where* you want the 2 Transports to be located...? Either 2 city names or 2 coordinates would help

Panama Canal might be the best place for the Freeport transport. The other transport probably should be somewhere around Leon or Granada

	09-02-2003 06:37									#11
	related to theoriginal subject Remove this text

Saragossa is another city that may benefit from sending its Oil Freight to CAPITOL. It also is too small to dislodge Beijing as CAPITOL's trading partner, and only has 2 trade routes atm. Since all 3 supply commodities are blocked right now, it would make sense to deliver that oil freight, rather than just let it idle.

	09-02-2003 06:47									#12
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OK, here's another stupidity admission from cavebear.

I thought a new trade route would always supplant an existing one. So they work by best return rather than by chronology? It has seemed to me (possibly in error), that a new one overwrote the oldest one.

	09-02-2003 07:03									#13
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quote: Originally posted by SCG Panama Canal might be the best place for the Freeport transport. The other transport probably should be somewhere around Leon or Granada

We could rush the Factory in Pananma Canal for 190 gold to build a Transport there in 5 turns thereafter. You asked for Freight in Leon and it would cost 112 gold in Granada to rush the Factory.

What if Saragossa rushed its Aquaduct for 38 gold and then started a Transport?

You realize that your accumulated requests for "rushing" exceed our supply of gold?

	09-02-2003 07:08									#14
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear OK, here's another stupidity admission from cavebear. I thought a new trade route would always supplant an existing one. So they work by best return rather than by chronology? It has seemed to me (possibly in error), that a new one overwrote the oldest one.

In my experience, it is based on # of trade arrows of the city it is trading with. If both cities have 3 trade routes, only when a city has more total city worker trade arrows (the 3 existing trade routes don't count for these purposes) than one of the existing trade routes does it replace the trade route. I used to do that all the time to make sure i had foreign trade routes (which seem to be roughly double of domestic trade arrows) - i'd remove all the workers a domestic trade route, so that the foreign city would have more arrows than my domestic one and replace it. I'd then replace the workers in my other city. Thats why we have to remove the workers in Leon - we want to remove that food route instead of Vigo or Canton trade routes. And that is why WIA town and Saragosa won't replace Beijing - its a size 12 republic city with many roads and no corruption

	09-02-2003 07:20									#15
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear We could rush the Factory in Pananma Canal for 190 gold to build a Transport there in 5 turns thereafter. You asked for Freight in Leon and it would cost 112 gold in Granada to rush the Factory. What if Saragossa rushed its Aquaduct for 38 gold and then started a Transport? You realize that your accumulated requests for "rushing" exceed our supply of gold?

Saragossa would work too As for building requests, i don't consider all of them rush requests (i consider superhighways a 2-turn rush request)- sometimes i'm refering to adding to the build queue (such as Leon - freight first, then - ah, i see, you've added superhighways to its queue )

Yes, Saragossa is a fine place for it

	09-02-2003 07:28									#16
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On the surface of it, it seems to make no sense. All the Workers of a city contribute equally to the overall trade applied to all the trade routes. I must be missing something. How can you remove “all the workers [on] a domestic trade route”? I don’t see how to separate them. Are there more than one domestic city involved?

	09-02-2003 07:37									#17
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quote: Originally posted by SCG Saragossa would work too As for building requests, i don't consider all of them rush requests (i consider superhighways a 2-turn rush request)- sometimes i'm refering to adding to the build queue (such as Leon - freight first, then - ah, i see, you've added superhighways to its queue ) Yes, Saragossa is a fine place for it

OK, Saragosa Aquaduct is rushed, Transport to be built next. And Panama Canal is set for "Rush Factory, Transport Next".

Happy Now?

	09-02-2003 08:23									#18
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear On the surface of it, it seems to make no sense. All the Workers of a city contribute equally to the overall trade applied to all the trade routes. I must be missing something. How can you remove “all the workers [on] a domestic trade route”? I don’t see how to separate them. Are there more than one domestic city involved?

For WIA town, when we deliver the oil freight, remove all the trade workers from Leon. It leaves 2 worker trade arrows, making it much less than either Canton or Vigo. Therefore, when the freight is delivered to CAPITOL, the city with the least trade arrows (Leon, 2 from workers) is the city replaced, not one of the other 2 cities. Once its delivered, end the workers holiday in Leon. Its the compliment to the concept of maximizing trade arrows to get the biggest payoff.

	09-02-2003 09:53									#19
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Wow, you never know what you'll learn from the Demo games.

	09-02-2003 13:57									#20
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear I thought a new trade route would always supplant an existing one.

There is a great posting in the strategy thread related to early landings which explains how base trade arrows in the cities involved affect route replacement and blocking. It has a number of demo saves which helps people like me. A key point that was new to me is that you can adjust the number of base trade arrows before a delivery and then put them back after the delivery so that you achieve the result you want (replacing or not replacing an existing route) without having any impact on production, science or food.

RJM at Sleepers

	09-02-2003 18:53									#21
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quote: Originally posted by SCG (...) St Pratski (...)

My last name is spelled, "Praski" just to let you know, (and no, I'm not pist at that, just though you would like to know )

	09-02-2003 21:12									#22
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quote: Originally posted by 123john321 My last name is spelled, "Praski" just to let you know, (and no, I'm not pist at that, just though you would like to know )

YOU are pointing out a minor spelling error?

	11-02-2003 01:56									#23
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Oooh, the irony.



Stop, you're killing me.