12-02-2003 02:35									#61
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quote: Providing defensive assistence when asked by a member state, as Turkey has done, is clearly with in the NATO treaty.

If Turkey doesn't join in the attack against Iraq, it won't have to worry about defending itself. NATO is essentially defensive; it was never meant to require assistance when members launch attacks against thrid parties. In the US this notion seems heretical and incomprehensible right now, although it's generally accepted elsewhere.

NATO members are no more obliged to help Turkey than they were obliged to help the United States in Vietnam.

	12-02-2003 02:38									#62
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Not yet but if a missile lands in Turkish Kurdistan then a member would be attacked. The treaty doesn't specify preconditions, i.e. only if you are atackedout of the blue by a rogue state, it simply says "if a member state is attacked". That's the letter of the law.

	12-02-2003 02:40									#63
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That doesn't mean Turkey will invoke article 11 after all Britain didn't invoke the NATO treaty when Argintina invaded the Falklands though it had every right to do so.

	12-02-2003 02:40									#64
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quote: Originally posted by uh Clem If Turkey doesn't join in the attack against Iraq, it won't have to worry about defending itself. NATO is essentially defensive; it was never meant to require assistance when members launch attacks against thrid parties. In the US this notion seems heretical and incomprehensible right now, although it's generally accepted elsewhere. NATO members are no more obliged to help Turkey than they were obliged to help the United States in Vietnam.

Turkey may be under threat whether even if the US attacks only from Kuwait. France and Germany have NOT denied that, nor have they denied that NATO has a role in defending Turkey. They only say that its not yet the time to discuss it.

As for general acceptance, 16 out of 19 NATO states agree on the need to help Turkey. Only three agree with your position. The Netherlands has offered to help Turkey bilaterally and has expressed concern at the Franco-German position, as has the UK. nd BTW I beleive NATO was involked by Turkey during the 1991 Gulf war - exact some considerations, except for the position of France and Germany.

	12-02-2003 02:55									#65
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Uh-huh. As I said: "In the US this notion seems heretical and incomprehensible right now..."

Meanwhile from Reuters:

Jazeera: Bin Laden Urges Muslims to Defend Iraq

quote: The statement did not express support for Iraqi President Saddam Hussein -- it said Muslims should support the Iraqi people rather than the country's government. "The fighting should be in the name of God only, not in the name of national ideologies, nor to seek victory for the ignorant governments that rule all Arab states, including Iraq," the statement said.

Wow, those guys are tight!

	12-02-2003 03:01									#66
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Associated Press:

Bin Laden again? Arab station airs new audio tape

quote: In an interview with al-Jazeera aired after the tape, U.S. State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said the recording shows that Iraq and al-Qaida "are bound by a common hatred.'' "He threatens everybody in the Arab world except Saddam Hussein,'' Boucher said. [snip] The speaker on the tape said nothing about direct ties between al-Qaida and the Iraqi government - saying his followers only share a common interest with Iraq, even though he denounced Saddam's secular, socialist al-Baath party as "infidels.''

	12-02-2003 03:08									#67
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I know were he is. He's hiding in Texas! That's the last place they would look for him...

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	12-02-2003 03:13									#68
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quote: Originally posted by uh Clem Uh-huh. As I said: "In the US this notion seems heretical and incomprehensible right now..." Meanwhile from Reuters: Jazeera: Bin Laden Urges Muslims to Defend Iraq Wow, those guys are tight!

so evidently Binny is NOT trying to hand Bush a smoking gun against Iraq.

Hawk spin: thats consistent with Saddam - Bin laden alliance
Dove spin: Its also consistent with OBL wanting to increase US unpopularity in the Muslim world, irrespetive of any links with Saddam.

	12-02-2003 03:13									#69
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Nobody said they were getting married but they do seem to be working together to some degree. I.E. You can hang out here if you don't directly attack the regime and we'll let you run attacks like the assissination of Foley from Baghdad.

	12-02-2003 03:14									#70
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quote: Originally posted by uh Clem Uh-huh. As I said: "In the US this notion seems heretical and incomprehensible right now..." !

Then why havent France and Germany made this case???

	12-02-2003 03:18									#71
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quote: Originally posted by uh Clem Uh-huh. As I said: "In the US this notion seems heretical and incomprehensible right now..."

The difference between our two positions is mine is based upon what the treaty actually says and the other is based upon what somebody thinks the treaty really ought to have said but didn't.

	12-02-2003 03:44									#72
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quote: Originally posted by uh Clem NATO is essentially defensive;

NATO hasn't been a defensive alliance since the Clinton administration. It's a little late to try turning back the clock now on that point.

	12-02-2003 03:51									#73
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Yeah, I forgot, it's Clinton's fault.

But yes, it definitely is too late. NATO's toast, and good riddance. It should have disbanded after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

	12-02-2003 03:54									#74
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quote: Originally posted by uh Clem Yeah, I forgot, it's Clinton's fault.

How could you describe the Balkan adventures as anything other than aggressive military acts?

	12-02-2003 04:07									#75
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Looking for a new mission in Yugoslavia was a result of not shutting down by 1992. If it hadn't been in the Balkans, it would have been somewhere else.

Something called "NATO" will no doubt continue to exist (unless this war turns into the biggest screw-up of all time). But it will not be the same organization it has been, and why should it? Richard Perle said a few days ago that France is no longer an ally and needs to be "contained." [!]

	12-02-2003 04:13									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin About the camp: I was watching BBC World News last night and they had the footage of the Iraqi camp. The Iraqi's had evacuated the camp and the barraks was full of children's clothes and toys. The Iraqis claimed it was a orphanage ( ); and orphanage which had military parade grounds, an infantry obsticle course, and a 12 foot high barbed wire fence around it. The best part was the fence had dozens of metal signs on it which the Iraqis had painted over with white paint. Only a single coat of paint was applied though so the reporters could still see that the signs said. They had a skull and cross bones on it with the arabic words saying "danger posion gas". It must have been a hell of an orphanage.

I saw this too. (BBC ) the obsurdity made it morbidly funny to me.

	12-02-2003 05:59									#77
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BTW more evidience that Iraq has been hidding weapons banned by the U.N.. From CNN.

quote: U.S. intelligence sources tell CNN that they have detected recent Iraqi military moves that include placement of Scud missile launch equipment next to mosques and the shipment of explosives into southern Iraq, possible intended for oil fields. U.S. intelligence tells CNN: • Iraq has moved equipment used for launching Scud missiles next to mosques and historic sites. The move by the Iraqis is viewed as an effort to preserve their launchers from U.S. attack, and is another indicator that Iraq still has Scud missiles

The article goes on and you can read the whole thing at the web site if you want. Why would the be moving Scud luanchers around if they didn't have Scuds? Maybe, just maybe because they do have a few Scuds let?

	12-02-2003 06:25									#78
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BTW more evidience that Iraq has been hidding weapons banned by the U.N.. From CNN.

quote: U.S. intelligence sources tell CNN that they have detected recent Iraqi military moves that include placement of Scud missile launch equipment next to mosques and the shipment of explosives into southern Iraq, possible intended for oil fields. U.S. intelligence tells CNN: • Iraq has moved equipment used for launching Scud missiles next to mosques and historic sites. The move by the Iraqis is viewed as an effort to preserve their launchers from U.S. attack, and is another indicator that Iraq still has Scud missiles

The article goes on and you can read the whole thing at the web site if you want. Why would the be moving Scud luanchers around if they didn't have Scuds? Maybe, just maybe because they do have a few Scuds left?

	12-02-2003 07:22									#79
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quote: Originally posted by uh Clem Looking for a new mission in Yugoslavia was a result of not shutting down by 1992. If it hadn't been in the Balkans, it would have been somewhere else. Something called "NATO" will no doubt continue to exist (unless this war turns into the biggest screw-up of all time). But it will not be the same organization it has been, and why should it? Richard Perle said a few days ago that France is no longer an ally and needs to be "contained." [!]

French actions are inexplicable if one assume they are an American ally and not an ally of Saddam.

They make a lot of sense if one assume the opposite.

	12-02-2003 07:35									#81
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Since De Gaul was President the French government has been primarially worried about being anti-American first and concerned for things like allainces, treaty obligations, and what not fall in a distant second. If he's so worried about peace then why is he trying to harm Turkey instead of trying to push Iraq into complying with any of 17 different UNSC resolutions.

If he's so in favor of larger inspections then why did he block them when the U.S. asked for them last year? The anwser is he isn't interested in inspections; he's interested in delaying. Delaying so he can continue to pander to the muslim and leftist groups in France. Delaying so he can curry favor with the Saddam regime he has been so busy signing business countracts with. Delaying because he thinks it will some how harm the U.S. when in reality he is really hurting NATO and Turkey with his inexcusible misconduct.

	13-02-2003 07:06									#82
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France, Germany, & Beligium continue denying help to their ally Turkey and continue to isolate themselves from the rest of the allaince.

The French assursion that it is helping to stop the war is mindless none season. Saying that preventing Turkey will giving gas maskes to its citizens will prevent war is alot like saying not boarding up windows will prevent a huricane.

The huicane will still come but the damage will be much worse.

	13-02-2003 07:07									#83
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Cross-site quote to defeat cross-site argument.

quote: Except that it's beyond the power of human beings to stop a hurricane, and Iraq has given no indication that it's willing to start a new war until it's attacked.

	13-02-2003 07:33									#84
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I'll have to go to CG and check out the other thread. I got bored when no body responded for several hours.

Iraq is starting a new war by violating the 17th U.N. resolution in 12 years! The last resolution was very clear about what Iraq had to do to avoid war and Saddam has gone out of his way to violate it. Does anyone here seriously believe Iraq doesn’t have WoMD left? There are satellite pictures on CNN today of Iraqi Scud missiles, banned by the Gulf war cease fire, being moved in to western Iraq.

So Frogger is your opposition to giving Turkey chemical protectic gear and the like based upon that Iraq hasn’t violated its treaty requirements to disarm or is it based on something else?