12-02-2003 22:55									#271
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx This investment contribution is less than the factory owner's, so, when it comes time to divvy up the profits, guess who gets the larger share? -=Vel=-

That is total crap. Vel, if you were really as defensive about your labor as you claim to be you would clearly see that the worker busted his ass to produce the good while the factory owner did not.

	12-02-2003 22:57									#272
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quote: Originally posted by Ned OK, so the worker rents the machine and the floorspace in the factory and sells the shoes to the highest bidder or alternatively to broker X for $5. Is he now exploited?

Yes, rent is even more evil than profit

	12-02-2003 23:16									#273
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Duncan....I surrender.

You will not listen to logical arguments, and you will not change your position even when presented with overwhelming evidence that demonstrates it to be incorrect.

Using the principle that time is money, I have therefore concluded that it is not worth my time to try to convince you anymore.

You're telling us we're not listening, but we are. We are listening very well. And in addition to listening, we are countering your arguments with difinitive proof that your position is incorrect.

But....YOU are not listening.

So be it.

Live in your Communist dream world if that is your desire.

In the meantime, I've got some goals I want to accomplish. Goals that I set for myself, by the way, and goals I will reach by virtue of my own hard work.

And when I do, I will, no doubt, become one of those lazy exploitive capitalist dogs, who lied and stole to get to where I want to be.

As to commenting on the "if you were as defensive about your labor...." reply....in order to make an economly function, you must put a price tag on your labor. On your time. What is it? How much is an hour of Duncan's time worth? Is it worth $500,000 (the price of the shoe machine). That's what you are saying, and I contend that you are wrong.

In fact, the rest of the western world, who defeated communism and proved their capitalistic system superior ALSO says you're wrong.

But...that won't change your mind either, I suppose.

::shakes head::
Sad, really.



-=Vel=-

	12-02-2003 23:24									#274
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just to point out that you didn't prove anything to me.

I don't think that any hiring is exploitation.

	12-02-2003 23:30									#275
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All production comes from labor. The ownership of the means of production not itself produce the goods. The workers can own the means of production themselves and not have to pay out profit. So why do we need capitalists? We don't they are pointless and useless. They contribute nothing to the welfare of society.

	12-02-2003 23:39									#276
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK All production comes from labor. The ownership of the means of production not itself produce the goods. The workers can own the means of production themselves and not have to pay out profit. So why do we need capitalists? We don't they are pointless and useless. They contribute nothing to the welfare of society.

In principle, everyone could own their own means of production. True. But, the evil arises when you tell a worker that he cannot borrow a tool from someone else and if he does you will shoot him or the person who loaned it to him.

Communism relies on force, not freedom.

	12-02-2003 23:44									#277
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You don't have to shot him. That is idiotic and evil. The Russians and Chineses were very stupid that way.

	12-02-2003 23:59									#278
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Oh really? How would you do it?

And why is it "evil" that if I have something you need, I charge you a small "rent" for its use?

What? Do you think you should be able to just walk into my house and take it....bring it back when you like?

Besides, the rent I'll be charging will be less than you could buy or make the item for yourself....so how/where does "evil" get ascribed?

-=Vel=-

	13-02-2003 00:02									#279
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK You took this out of context and twisted it again. You do this so often I'm not even going to respond to it this time.

Duncan, you've said over and over and over again that capitalists do nothing but exploit their workers. I don't need to twist anything you say, you're doing a fine job of that all by yourself.

	13-02-2003 00:03									#280
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Every time I try to get out... they drag me back in! [/Vel]



-Arrian

	13-02-2003 00:12									#281
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(singing along with the music)

"...your disease is killin' me...."



I know, I know....can't help it!

-=Vel=-