12-02-2003 00:08									#211
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian First off, "taxing the hell out of the poor" is clearly a bad idea because you won't get much money out of them. It's also wrong. I wasn't under the impression we were discussing the US tax code... and even if we were, I didn't advocate raising the lower tax brackets and granting big percentage cuts for the upper brackets! I'm ok with the progressive tax system. I'm not ok with the demonization of the rich, but that's another issue. I was talking about fiscal responsibility in government. Not how the government gets its money - how it spends it! I want the national debt reduced (eventually wiped out) and I want surpluses during times of good economic growth so we can support deficit spending in recession. How does that have anything to do with "taxing the hell out of the poor" and how does it make me "very conservative?" -Arrian

Arrian,

The fact is that the rich own the debt, and interest payments go to the rich not the poor. The entire capitalist system leads to disparity in income and wealth. In order to keep it going we have to make it possible for the poor to keep spending money. I'm saying that becuase the debt tends to increase the disparity in income the tax system should be that much more progressive.

	12-02-2003 00:12									#212
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Like a broken record I say again, taxes are not the issue. Wages are. We need to find a way to force wages up. Capitalism is the best economic system because it harnesses human vice...greed. If you forced the rich (corporations and their stockholders) to pay higher wages you would immediately get two great economic boosts. 1) higher consumer spending due to increase wages, and 2) more innovation from corporations as they struggle to restore the profits lost to higher wages. Win-win scenerio.

No argument, but don't you agree that increased government spending puts upward pressure on wages. The problem with the governmetn and the fed is that they are too paranoid about inflation. they are anti-wages and anti-growth.

	12-02-2003 00:15									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Again, Duncan, the facts do not support what you are saying. The rich in this country pay far, FAR more taxes than the poor....and that only makes sense, does it not? After all, if the poor are....well, poor, then they don't have much money to take. Contrast that to the wealthy, who have money in abundance, is it not logical then, to go where the money is? -=Vel=-

Ogie and Vel,

I'm not sure what you guys are resonding too. I seem to be dealing with multiple issues.

No matter what your views are about taxes, there are economic realities. Arguing that the rich pay too much taxes is just a political argument, not based in economic reality.

	12-02-2003 00:39									#214
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger It is the right to live or not to live the american way that should be the goal. People don't want to live in there own version of america, they just want to be free. (which is not just an american value and nor is america the only place where it can be found).

Stinger, and I agree principle that all we should be we should be in favor of is Liberty. Once people have Liberty they should be free to elect any type of governments they so choose: communism, fascism, Nazism, laissez-faire capitalism, and Islamic Republic's or all to be respected if not endorsed. So long as these governments truly are democratically elected and are not a threat to world peace, they should left in peace. But to the extent that they violate human rights, free speech or the free exercise of religion, the United States cannot be indifferent. These governments truly are not democratic, but oppressive. (This conduct is typical of one party rule.) We have a duty to people they oppress to oppose them and to impose sanctions until their conduct improves.

	12-02-2003 00:47									#215
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Duncan,

You are saying that because the federal government is in debt (about $500 trillion) and the interest payments on that debt go to banks which are owned (primarily*) by rich people, we should tax the rich more than we presently do because this somehow unfair/wrong?

And by the way, I still don't have an answer from you regarding putting words in my mouth ("tax the hell out of the poor!") and assuming I'm lying to you ("verifiable examples"). I see no point in debating with someone who 1) invents stuff you didn't say to attack it (aka "strawman") and 2) accuses you (outright, or indirectly) of being a liar.

-Arrian

* - it should be noted that all shareholders are part owners of a company. I am therefore a very, very, very minor part owner of Travelers and CitiGroup.

	12-02-2003 01:00									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Duncan, You are saying that because the federal government is in debt (about $500 trillion) and the interest payments on that debt go to banks which are owned (primarily*) by rich people, we should tax the rich more than we presently do because this somehow unfair/wrong? And by the way, I still don't have an answer from you regarding putting words in my mouth ("tax the hell out of the poor!") and assuming I'm lying to you ("verifiable examples"). I see no point in debating with someone who 1) invents stuff you didn't say to attack it (aka "strawman") and 2) accuses you (outright, or indirectly) of being a liar. -Arrian * - it should be noted that all shareholders are part owners of a company. I am therefore a very, very, very minor part owner of Travelers and CitiGroup.

I apologize for putting words in your mouth. That happens sometimes here when people don't fully understand what the other person is trying to say. My fault.

I also apologize for saying that the example you have about your grandfather was a lie. I don't know if it was or not. I really wasn't saying that you were lying. Just that there is always the possibility that things that people say, that are not verifiable, are sometimes not true. With respect to your grandfather, I actually believe you. You could have said that your grandfather worked in the fields, saved his money and bought microsoft or something, but you didn't. You were honest about it I'm sure.

Now about the debt. I think the rich have an obligation to pay more tax, because this is a system that they established and one the works for them and against the working class. I also think that when the capitalists are able to exploit the working class too much that they screw the economy up by killing off demand. So I favor a very progressive tax system. And by the way sales tax is regressive.

	12-02-2003 01:32									#217
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DuncanK, Your kind of thinking represents a major problem. The United States does not have a vested nobility that lords over a peasant class. It is a land of equal opportunity where everyone can become rich and powerful, and where the rich and powerful today can be bankrupt tomorrow. (Think of the fate of Ted Turner if you doubt what I say about to rich and powerful stumbling.)

The key is to provide maximum incentive and opportunity to succeed. This creates a robust economy where all prosper. Of course, there should be a social safety net, but this has nothing whatsoever to do with tax policy.

A tax policy that punishes success and robs people of an opportunity to succeed only brakes economy prosperity and hurts the very workers it is trying to protect.

	12-02-2003 01:43									#218
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Duncan,

Alright then.

Re: the debt. This is where we will have to simple agree to disagree. You, as a communist, believe that the capitalist system is wrong and unfair, and seek to (partially) redress that unfairness via an extreme progressive tax (I assume you want to raise the upper brackets considerably).

I do not believe that the system is inherently unfair. I think it needs work, since it's far from perfect. What I favor is an aggressive approach to try and really create equal opportunities in life. Communism seeks to enforce equal outcomes, regardless of effort, which is another kettle of fish.

-Arrian

	12-02-2003 01:48									#219
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An excellent summation, Arrian. Equal opportunities allow the chips to fall where they fall. Some will do better than others, on the basis of harder work, smarter work, innovative ideas, or a combination of all.

Contrast that with a system of equal outcomes, regardless of effort, and it crystalizes the differences nicely.

-=Vel=-

	12-02-2003 02:06									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Ned DuncanK, Your kind of thinking represents a major problem. The United States does not have a vested nobility that lords over a peasant class. It is a land of equal opportunity where everyone can become rich and powerful, and where the rich and powerful today can be bankrupt tomorrow. (Think of the fate of Ted Turner if you doubt what I say about to rich and powerful stumbling.) The key is to provide maximum incentive and opportunity to succeed. This creates a robust economy where all prosper. Of course, there should be a social safety net, but this has nothing whatsoever to do with tax policy. A tax policy that punishes success and robs people of an opportunity to succeed only brakes economy prosperity and hurts the very workers it is trying to protect.

There is no equal opportunity. That's just the law. It's not reality.

	12-02-2003 02:09									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx An excellent summation, Arrian. Equal opportunities allow the chips to fall where they fall. Some will do better than others, on the basis of harder work, smarter work, innovative ideas, or a combination of all. Contrast that with a system of equal outcomes, regardless of effort, and it crystalizes the differences nicely. -=Vel=-

I think I've bee successfull at showing that a persons ability to succeed in capitalism has more to do with the cards they are dealt at birth than the social contributions. You are going to choose to deny that, but that is your choice.

	12-02-2003 02:14									#222
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK There is no equal opportunity. That's just the law. It's not reality.

Then, let's work on this issue.

What kills equal opportunity: bad schools, bad parents, divorce, racism, sexism, and, most of all, the lack of jobs.

	12-02-2003 02:16									#223
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK I think I've bee successfull at showing that a persons ability to succeed in capitalism has more to do with the cards they are dealt at birth than the social contributions. You are going to choose to deny that, but that is your choice.

So, if all do not have equal opportunity to become rich, we simply eliminate the rich? Huh?

	12-02-2003 02:24									#224
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Duncan,

We do not, in fact, have equal opportunity yet. It's a work in progress. I do not expect we will EVER have 100% equal opportunities in life - we're not perfect, and no system we come up with will be either.

I do want us to keep working at equality of opportunity, though. I do NOT want us to aim at equality of outcomes.

-Arrian

	12-02-2003 02:38									#225
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quote: I do want us to keep working at equality of opportunity, though. I do NOT want us to aim at equality of outcomes.

	12-02-2003 02:49									#226
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK i don't think that was Mao, but it is good.

But utterly impossible.

	12-02-2003 02:55									#227
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Technically, though not legally, rich people are "american nobility" since they get favors from, and have the access to, the government that the common person doesn't. The US has a nobility, but they are called executives instead of counts or earls.

Ned: Yep, the rich b@stards must die!

	12-02-2003 02:55									#228
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe The Dem theory that monies in the hands of the poor will find its way into circulation and cause demand for goods and services is IMO not valid as the demand will be mostly for lowest denominator goods and services. These are not likely IMO to create jobs in a complex supply chain.

Consumer spending accounts for 60% of the overall economy, the last figure I came across. So anything you do that will stimulate that will be a good thing.

	12-02-2003 03:53									#229
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Duncan, We do not, in fact, have equal opportunity yet. It's a work in progress. I do not expect we will EVER have 100% equal opportunities in life - we're not perfect, and no system we come up with will be either. I do want us to keep working at equality of opportunity, though. I do NOT want us to aim at equality of outcomes. -Arrian

When we have something close to equality of outcomes we will also be close to equality of opportunity. All theoretical with capitalism of course.

The fact that we are so far away from equality of outcomes shows how far we are away from equality of opportunity.

	12-02-2003 03:56									#230
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Then, let's work on this issue. What kills equal opportunity: bad schools, bad parents, divorce, racism, sexism, and, most of all, the lack of jobs.

It's more complicated than that. You and I will never have the opportunities that Bill Gates has until we have the resources, information, and connections that he has. And that will never happen.

	12-02-2003 03:57									#231
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actually, Bill Gates is an opposite example, of getting rich and famous, against the odds.

	12-02-2003 03:58									#232
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quote: Originally posted by Willem But utterly impossible.

You are a business leader. I don't want to tell you how to be one, but I think you should take that quote more seriously.

	12-02-2003 04:00									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel actually, Bill Gates is an opposite example, of getting rich and famous, against the odds.

Yeah, he was working class, but he was very ruthless on his way to the top. So I like this example.

	12-02-2003 04:06									#234
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ARGH! No, No, No!

IF you want equality of outcomes, then you DOOM the society you are trying to build!

You doom it because I can do NOTHING....zip, zero, zilch, nada, and get the SAME outcome as a person who works hard for twenty hours a day.

THAT is a far more insidious form of "exploitation" than anything you will ever see in a capitalist society, and it *exactly* what your plan will bring about!

-=Vel=-

	12-02-2003 04:08									#235
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doesn't prove your current point ( unequality of opportunity)

One of my major beefs with capitalism is that a richie rich kid can get all the help he needs, while a poor kid can be brilliant but grow up in an enviroment that would lead him to crime.

Not only it is a personal tragedy, but it's also a such a waste.

	12-02-2003 04:10									#236
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK You are a business leader. I don't want to tell you how to be one, but I think you should take that quote more seriously.

Who said anything about being a business leader? I'm self-employed but I'm just another schmuck who's trying to pay his bills every month, and have a little left over for some fun.

And I do take that quote seriously. No amount of wishful thinking will make something function outside of it's inherent nature. It's not the egg's nature to become an omelette, therefor it will never be one unless we make it so.

	12-02-2003 04:12									#237
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And the more probable outcome would be:

Richie kid sqanders daddy's money and winds up spending his life in a rehab clinic where his family come and dote on him occassionally, and the poor, brilliant kid starts off playing speed chess for money or somesuch, and bootstraps his way to success.

I know lots of smart people who used to be poor. And I know lots of lazy people who used to be rich, and who are now struggling.

-=Vel=-

	12-02-2003 04:13									#238
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel doesn't prove your current point ( unequality of opportunity) One of my major beefs with capitalism is that a richie rich kid can get all the help he needs, while a poor kid can be brilliant but grow up in an enviroment that would lead him to crime. Not only it is a personal tragedy, but it's also a such a waste.

I'd say that's the failure of the school system, not capitalism.

	12-02-2003 04:13									#239
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Yeah, he was working class, but he was very ruthless on his way to the top. So I like this example.

William III Gates started with $10 million from his rich dad. I would love to be this kind of "working class".

	12-02-2003 04:19									#240
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didn't know that, Sir Ralph. thumbs up on the heads up.