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Japher
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Ook! Ook! Ack! Ack! Ack!
Jun 2002
time: 05:25
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DuncanK and his views on money are so funny.
I too am jealous of those who receive the majority of their wealth, and in fact become worth more than they would have ever been worth, from their parents.
Yet, I wouldn't call it BS, I would call it life... and it isn't fair... boohooo
I for one am for the elimination of inheritence tax, even though all I stand to inherit is worn clock my mom bought at a flea market... yet, the government is going to tax me for it! why? because they are greedy.
quote:
Why is it BS. Because you have gone on and on about how people work to advance in society and you just told me that your son should be in elite class while my son should be in working class because of who their parents were. If you don't see the Bullshit there only your political bias and your dollars are keeping you from seeing reality. |
Ya know, the rich societies reality is not blinded by politics and money, it is created by politics and money. You need to realize that those who are successful have learned to shape the reality they live in, and have not just except the one they are in, while complaining about it on Poly.
So really, that comment is just utter hourse manure. While I haven't read all the previous post what they are saying is not BS, but could be confused as hypocracy. Yet telling someone that they are off base really doesn't say a whole lot if they feel the same way about yo.
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:25
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Duncan, when are you going to see??!
I assume you are a legal adult, yes?
And since you are a "consenting adult" if you AGREE to an employment contract, X work for Y wage, IT IS NOT EXPLOITATION! You didn't have to agree! Nobody put a gun to your head and forced you to agree! The moment you accepted the agreement, it became voluntary. You RENTED your services to another. You chose that path, as opposed to, say, starting up your own business.
And that's your choice to make. That's your business. I don't have to look over your shoulder to see what you're doing or how much you're making...if it happens to be that you negotiated a better deal for yourself than I did, then GOOD FOR YOU!
And in the same breath, don't go looking over MY shoulder to see what I'm doing. It should not matter to you. If I negotiated a better deal for myself, then it means I'm a better negotiator. That's all. It doesn't mean I'm lording it over you, it means I was a better negotiator.
Jesus, I am talking about giving the fruits of MY work to my kids....not talking about stealing your work and giving it to my kids.
All I am saying is if I choose to do that, and you choose not to, then don't come cryin' to me cos my kids get a head start.
It ain't rocket science.
-=Vel=-
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DuncanK
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Evil Empire
Dec 2002
time: 21:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
Duncan, when are you going to see??!
I assume you are a legal adult, yes?
And since you are a "consenting adult" if you AGREE to an employment contract, X work for Y wage, IT IS NOT EXPLOITATION! You didn't have to agree! Nobody put a gun to your head and forced you to agree! The moment you accepted the agreement, it became voluntary. You RENTED your services to another. You chose that path, as opposed to, say, starting up your own business.
And that's your choice to make. That's your business. I don't have to look over your shoulder to see what you're doing or how much you're making...if it happens to be that you negotiated a better deal for yourself than I did, then GOOD FOR YOU!
And in the same breath, don't go looking over MY shoulder to see what I'm doing. It should not matter to you. If I negotiated a better deal for myself, then it means I'm a better negotiator. That's all. It doesn't mean I'm lording it over you, it means I was a better negotiator.
Jesus, I am talking about giving the fruits of MY work to my kids....not talking about stealing your work and giving it to my kids.
All I am saying is if I choose to do that, and you choose not to, then don't come cryin' to me cos my kids get a head start.
It ain't rocket science.
-=Vel=- |
I've already seen all this, and I've already answered all these questions.
Capitalism results in different classes of people. Which class you are born into is largly determined by which class your parents were in. Those are the facts. Deal with it.
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:25
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Yes, what you say is entirely true. Absolutely no denying that.
And here's something else there's no denying.
The class you are born into? That's not where you have to stay!
This might come as a shock to ya, but if you get out there and make some sacrifices and work hard, you can improve your situation!
It takes effort, but is entirely doable, and the more effort you put into it, the faster it happens.
Try doing that in your communist utopia, comrade, and good luck....
Here's another thing you're hell bent on denying:
Just because a fellow I know may have been born with more opportunity than me (cos his parents had more money) doesn't mean I don't HAVE opportunities....I have different opportunities, perhaps even lesser opportunities, but I still have plenty! More than I can use, truth be told! So what does it matter?
And here's something else:
In this evil, totally corrupt system we have, there are government sponsored programs that give away billions of dollars every year to help level the playing field, giving people born with fewer opportunities a variety of ways to dramatically improve themselves (low interest loans, grants for a *staggering* variety of purposes, professional expertise for business planning....the works!) - the rich kids don't get any of this stuff.
-=Vel=-
(still waiting on your answer tho, with regards to what gives you the right to dictate to me, what I can or cannot do for my own children)
-=Vel=-
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DuncanK
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Evil Empire
Dec 2002
time: 21:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
The class you are born into? That's not where you have to stay!
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Let's clear this up. I admit there is the smallest chance to move up into higher class. If I try though, it is by no means certain that I will move to a higher class. So to say that I don't have to stay in lower class is only true by chance and on a case by case basis. The fact remains that the higher class that you are born into the more opportunity you have, which is still classism.
quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
In this evil, totally corrupt system we have, there are government sponsored programs that give away billions of dollars every year to help level the playing field, giving people born with fewer opportunities a variety of ways to dramatically improve themselves (low interest loans, grants for a *staggering* variety of purposes, professional expertise for business planning....the works!) - the rich kids don't get any of this stuff.
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I'm saying that we need to do more to make opportunity equal, not that attempts aren't made already. Just that they aren't enough.
quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
(still waiting on your answer tho, with regards to what gives you the right to dictate to me, what I can or cannot do for my own children)
-=Vel=- |
Nothing I can do. However, if the law were changed, the law would be just in its execution by the simple fact the opportunity was never equal and you exploited the labor of the working class to obtain the fruits of their labor. By no means should this make it your childrens right to further exploit another generation of the working poor.
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:25
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Well, then we will have to agree to disagree, and in this, I think we disagree on a couple of fundamental points, which are these:
1) My argument is focused on individual choices. What you choose to do is your business. What I choose to do is my busienss. (within the framework of the law, of course). Your argument is founded on the belief that someone (the state, presumably) should watch everyone closely, to make sure no one does anything "improper" while no one is looking --improper being some awful crime like charging rent for the use of a tool, or giving a child a portion of my accumulated wealth.
2) My argument is based on the belief that private ownership of property is a good thing, because private property is well used, and well maintained property. You believe that private property is bad, and if I have a saw, and you need it, you should have every right to come on over and grab it.
3) My argument is based on the notion that hard work should be rewarded. Your argument is based on the notion that no matter what the level of effort, all outcomes should be the same.
4) My argument is based on the certain knowledge that if you begin this life in poverty, you need not stay there, and that, in fact, it is almost impossible TO stay there if you apply yourself. Your argument is based on the "fact" (for which you have yet to provide the first shred of evidence) that there is effectively no social mobility in this country. You believe there are Haves, and Have-nots, and there is very little chance for a person with limited means to advance himself.
5) My argument is based on the actual definition of the word "exploit." which means to take underhanded advantage of. Given that you are a consenting adult, if you agree to a contract (your time x for y dollars), and both parties abide by that contract, then there can be no exploitation. You seem to have some fantasy definition of exploitation which places manual, physical labor as the pinnicle of human achievement, and totally discount creativity and innovation. You also seem to have the misplaced belief that no matter what the conditions, if a person physically WORKS to create something, even if the effort needed is scant, then that person is entitled to the lion's share of the profit from what was made. The fact that others provided the materials, a place to create, machinery needed, and other tools is, to you, entirely incidental and not worthy of consideration.
There is no reconciling these positions. Your beliefs are, no doubt well intended, but sorely misguided.
-=Vel=-
PS: And for the record, you have to try really hard NOT to advance, if you find yourself starting at the bottom rung of the social ladder in this country.
That's the fact.
PPS: No, you're contradicting yourself again, Duncan....if you do not believe in private property, then you cannot OWN a car. It's community property....get it straight....
-V.
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:25
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quote:
3) My argument is based on the notion that hard work should be rewarded. Your argument is based on the notion that no matter what the level of effort, all outcomes should be the same.
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not true.
quote:
2) My argument is based on the belief that private ownership of property is a good thing, because private property is well used, and well maintained property. You believe that private property is bad, and if I have a saw, and you need it, you should have every right to come on over and grab it.
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No, the belief is that if we live in a neighbourhood, and each one pays a buck, everyone will have a saw when he or she needs one, because saws are rarely used.
Vel, you keep strawmanning, and hyperboling. please stop. 
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15-02-2003 01:44
Those are two very goods ones. But I was refering to mainstream historians 
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