13-02-2003 02:25									#361
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK I wouldn't expect you to remember the US History where violence has been used against the working class.

As oppposed to the Stalinist Purges or the Cultural Revolution? How about the Pol Pot regime? All in the name of communism! Now there's a benign and beneficial form of government for you, they really knew how to look after their workers didn't they? Hey, we won't exploit them, we'll kill them instead, or use them for slave labour in our prison camps.

	13-02-2003 02:33									#362
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So Willem, do you agree that all capital is dripping with blood then?

	13-02-2003 02:34									#363
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I for one, do not.

That made a *really* good headline, but is not even close to the truth.

-=Vel=-
(and I'll answer your other post in a bit....in the middle of something at work, and can't write a long post)

	13-02-2003 02:36									#364
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Vel,

How much of it is dripping with blood?

	13-02-2003 02:36									#365
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Did it ever occur to you, Duncan, that Marx was writing in the mid-nineteenth century, during the very worst part of the Industrial Revolution (in England, IIRC) and since that time, capitalist societies have made changes and compromises that Marx did not forsee or consider possible, and that undermines his conclusions?

As for all capital dripping in blood... mindless hyberbole.

-Arrian

	13-02-2003 02:37									#366
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quote: 'zazel....mostly cos we don't shoot 'em at the border to keep 'em out...we send them home!

Would you prefer the east German forces to go into west Berlin to, you know, send them home?

Seriously, though, I am against the shooting part, as well, but there is nothing wrong with building the wall, and punishing those that try to exit.

quote: And we DO let people in....but we do it in an organized way that will not damage our infrastructure. There's a right way to do something....a responsible way, and then there's chaos.

yes, those who benefit you, doctors, scientists, engineers. How noble of you.

Seriously, though, I think the shooting part is wrong. But there is nothing wrong with the "building the wall" part.

quote: He did during the Cultural Revolution when he imposed his will on the country and ignored the suffering he was causing the very people he was supposed to be responsible for. The same goes for Stalin.

he was an authoritarian leader of the country since it's beginning, before the cultural revolution.

quote: True, but having a society with a centralized power base makes it that much easier to gain control of.

It was the centralization of the political power, not the socioeconomic structure of the SU that was vulnrable.

quote: But did people from the Philipines and Thailand try to emigrate to the West or to the Communist Bloc.

As I've said it before NUMEROUS TIMES in this thread, this is because there are richer capitalist countries, and poorer ones, this stemming from various reasons, like imperialism for example.

quote: And the Philipines at least wasn't entirely a free market economy. It was controlled by a dictator who determined which people were included in the economy and which weren't. Only those people he favoured were allowed to prosper. The rest of the people were treated like dogs begging for a scrap at the dinner table.

As I've already said, capitalism is not interexchengeable with free market. ( btw, these people are hardly faring much better now, with a democratic govt. )

	13-02-2003 02:38									#367
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Since the mid 19th century? Little if any. Certainly none of mine, and very likely none of yours either.

-=Vel=-

	13-02-2003 02:40									#368
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Did it ever occur to you, Duncan, that Marx was writing in the mid-nineteenth century, during the very worst part of the Industrial Revolution (in England, IIRC) and since that time, capitalist societies have made changes and compromises that Marx did not forsee or consider possible, and that undermines his conclusions? As for all capital dripping in blood... mindless hyberbole. -Arrian

Arrian,

Did you ever think of where that capital is right now and what is being done with it? And are you aware that violence, sickness and death has occured after Marx's death?

	13-02-2003 02:43									#369
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Certainly none of mine

Are you aware of the origins of the capital that you borrowed? What was that capital used for previously?

	13-02-2003 02:44									#370
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quote: Did you ever think of where that capital is right now and what is being done with it?

It's probably changed hands so many times it would be impossible to track.

quote: violence, sickness and death has occured after Marx's

No ****, sherlock. Ya think? Violence, sickness and death - especially sickness and death - are part of the human condition. I'm hoping we can cut down on the violence and sickness. Doubtful we can do anything about death, though. Mortality and all that.

-Arrian

	13-02-2003 02:46									#371
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you'd be amazed at science.

Could create a welfare problem, though, so eternal life without eternal youth is worthless.

	13-02-2003 02:48									#372
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK So Willem, do you agree that all capital is dripping with blood then?

Of course not. There's no denying that there have been struggles in the past, but how often these days do you hear of someone losing their life in a labour dispute that turned out nasty? I'd hardly call that dripping in blood, especially compared to what the socialist systems have done to their people.

	13-02-2003 02:50									#373
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Okay Duncan, it's like this:

Private ownership, despite what the cute, cuddly, fuzzy Communist propaganda flyers tell you, is not a crime nor a sin. It is in fact, THE most efficient way of allocating resources, and seeing that those resources are well used, and well maintained.

IF I hire you to use a machine that you lack the skills to build yourself, and lack the funds to PURCHASE yourself, I am NOT....I repeat, I AM NOT "exploiting" you in any way, shape, or form, by paying you a fair wage in exchange for stuff you make using my machine.

IF I forced you to the machine, chained you to it, and put a gun to your head, yes....then I'm exploiting you, but if you agree to the wage I offer, you are selling your labor for the agreed upon price. Nobody is "injuring you" for renting your labor (which is, essentially what is occuring). So if rent is evil, then YOU are evil, because you are renting out your time to the factory boss. Shame on you!

If you don't like it, don't accept my offer! It's just that simple.

Your choices are to accept someone *else's* offer, or to go into business for yourself.

Or, if you just don't want to participate, then there are outreach programs you can get some assistance from, but

DO NOT b*tch and moan about how sorry your situation is if you are not willing to work to improve it!

And don't give me that line of steaming crap that you can't, or you lack the skills, or the time, or the smarts, to do it. I have offered to help you (FREE!), and you turned it down. What I will not do, is simply offer to GIVE you anything but the information to help yourself.

If you want it, work for it. If you don't, then it must not be all that important to you.

And that, is all I have to say on the matter.

-=Vel=-

	13-02-2003 02:50									#374
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Screw it, at this point, I think we're on our way to 500. Kinda scary, considering we're down to 5 active posters.



-Arrian

edit: 5, damnit. Five!

I will not forget the Canadian.
I will not forget the Canadian.
I will not forget the Canadian...

	13-02-2003 03:05									#375
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel yes, those who benefit you, doctors, scientists, engineers. How noble of you.

Both the US and Canada have had a long tradition of accepting people into our countries who are fleeing persecution. All they have to do is ask for asylum, and we will consider their case very carefully. We don't just accept the elite of a society, we accept everyone.

quote: Seriously, though, I think the shooting part is wrong. But there is nothing wrong with the "building the wall" part.

I am a citizen of this planet, why I should I be penalized if I would like to live somewhere else?

quote: he was an authoritarian leader of the country since it's beginning, before the cultural revolution.

China was founded on socialist principles, the express intent was to have a society where everyone is equal. It doesn't matter what type of leader he was, or when he was around, the whole idea was to create a communist society. And the experiment went horribly wrong!

quote: It was the centralization of the political power, not the socioeconomic structure of the SU that was vulnrable.

Isn't that what I said?

quote: As I've said it before NUMEROUS TIMES in this thread, this is because there are richer capitalist countries, and poorer ones, this stemming from various reasons, like imperialism for example.

Well yes, that is rather self evident isn't it?

quote: As I've already said, capitalism is not interexchengeable with free market. ( btw, these people are hardly faring much better now, with a democratic govt. )

Yes it is. One of the principal concepts of capitalism is the free market. If you distort the market, as in the case of dictators, you distort the effects of it as well.

	13-02-2003 03:12									#376
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I will not forget the Canadian. I will not forget the Canadian. I will not forget the Canadian...

Yeah, we can be bulldogs when we want to be!

	13-02-2003 03:17									#377
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quote: Both the US and Canada have had a long tradition of accepting people into our countries who are fleeing persecution. All they have to do is ask for asylum, and we will consider their case very carefully. We don't just accept the elite of a society, we accept everyone.

a special case. Asylum is given to those who escape persecution or war. "I am poor" is not a cause of asylum.

quote: I am a citizen of this planet, why I should I be penalized if I would like to live somewhere else?

so, why the term "illegal immigrant" exists?

quote: China was founded on socialist principles, the express intent was to have a society where everyone is equal. It doesn't matter what type of leader he was, or when he was around, the whole idea was to create a communist society. And the experiment went horribly wrong!

No it was not. Killing people because they're talented is not a socialist idea.

	13-02-2003 03:32									#378
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The USA has a LONG tradition of letting hordes of people in from all walks of life. Doctors and Scientists included, but I assure you that if you check the rolls of folks coming in through Ellis Island, you'll find that they are the exception, and hardly the rule.

We do put quotas on the number of people we let in, that's true.

To do otherwise would strain the nation's infrastructure, and that is part of the reason they want to come here in the first place.

-=Vel=-

	13-02-2003 03:35									#379
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian It's probably changed hands so many times it would be impossible to track.

Exactly, the capital today goes back as far as feudalism. Much of it was accumulated during the industrial revolution. That capital was accumulated on the backs of the working class. Their blood was spilled to produce that capital. That capital exists within our system, perpetuating the system, and generating more capital.

Our financial system is littered with it. If you borrow money from the bank you borrow this blood dripping capital. If you save money and put it in the bank you allow capitalists to use it against the working class.

Therefore, what seems like an outrageous statement at first is in fact scientifically established as fact. ALL CAPITAL IS DRIPPING WITH BLOOD!

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Violence, sickness and death - especially sickness and death - are part of the human condition. I'm hoping we can cut down on the violence and sickness. Doubtful we can do anything about death, though. Mortality and all that. -Arrian

Well if capitalism causes these things why are you arguing in favor of it?

	13-02-2003 03:41									#380
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel a special case. Asylum is given to those who escape persecution or war. "I am poor" is not a cause of asylum.

I can't speak for the US but here in Canada we take in alot of poor people. In fact, after Sept. 11 we've been accused of being to lax.

quote: so, why the term "illegal immigrant" exists?

You can't just open your borders to anyone who wants to come in, that will just result in chaos. I think Sept. 11 is a good example of that.

quote: No it was not. Killing people because they're talented is not a socialist idea.

My point exactly! The original intent was easily corrupted.

	13-02-2003 03:41									#381
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quote: Isn't that what I said?

than what does it has to do with socialism?

quote: Well yes, that is rather self evident isn't it?

Yes. It is also evident that people will try to move into the richest country possible. Therefor, his argument is void.

quote: Yes it is. One of the principal concepts of capitalism is the free market. If you distort the market, as in the case of dictators, you distort the effects of it as well.

Hmm, OK. You're correct.

	13-02-2003 03:41									#382
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You know, there are communes out there. Little villages of people who get together and choose communism. It's voluntary. It apparently can work for those people.

Go join them, and leave the rest of us alone with OUR CHOICE.

-Arrian

	13-02-2003 03:43									#383
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quote: Therefore, what seems like an outrageous statement at first is in fact scientifically established as fact. ALL CAPITAL IS DRIPPING WITH BLOOD!

"Scientifically established as fact."

Oh, my side hurts.

What is it with extremists and flowery rhetoric?

-Arrian

	13-02-2003 03:45									#384
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Exactly, the capital today goes back as far as feudalism.

No you're wrong! We've increased that capital many fold since then without a single drop of blood being spilt.

quote: Much of it was accumulated during the industrial revolution.

It wasn't accumulated, it was created.

	13-02-2003 03:46									#385
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quote: You know, there are communes out there. Little villages of people who get together and choose communism. It's voluntary. It apparently can work for those people. Go join them, and leave the rest of us alone with OUR CHOICE. -Arrian

Why can't I try to persuade you into a different way of thinking? are you close minded?

	13-02-2003 03:46									#386
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Because something may have morally despicable origins hundreds of years ago does not mean that in the present it continues to be morally despicable.

The United States of America, as a country, has done some seriously awful things (genocide of Native Americans, Slavery, colonial escapades during & following the Spanish American War, the excesses of the Cold War, etc). However, that does not mean the country is unredeemable. Policy can be changed. Amends can be made.

How's this one: all nations are dripping with blood! Lets kill everyone! YEEEHHHHHAAAAAAWWWW!

	13-02-2003 03:48									#387
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Thank you, Willem!

America's GDP now is close to what the global GDP was during the 19th century. There is so much relatively new capital (with no blood on it, I might point out), that there's simply no comparison. In Marx's day, the statement may have had the ring of truth to it, but, we do not live in the 19th century.

The world has moved on. Advanced. Progressed.

You should to.

-=Vel=-

	13-02-2003 03:48									#388
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quote: Why can't I try to persuade you into a different way of thinking? are you close minded?

Wasn't talking to you, actually.

-Arrian

	13-02-2003 03:50									#389
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Catch you guys tomorrow... time to go home.

On the way, maybe I'll try and run over some bums, you know, 'cause I'm starting to feel a little jealous that I don't have any blood on my capital.

-Arrian

	13-02-2003 03:50									#390
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel than what does it has to do with socialism?

Geez, do I have to spell it out again? In a communist system every aspect of life is centralized. People are told what to wear, what to eat, what to think, what luxuries they will consume. One man works his way up the centralized system who's intentions aren't exactly pure and altruistic. He can now bend the entire society to his own will, since he now controls every facet of everyone's life. Including whether they live or die.

And again I quote:

"Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely."