10-02-2003 00:57									#1
	Declare war, enter enemy territory on same turn = OK ? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Alright, I know that if you have troops within another civ's border and declare war, your actions will definitely be looked upon poorly by other civs (ie. they may be more likely to declare war on you, or less likely to engage in a MPP or ROP, etc ... saying things like "We remember what you did to the British")

Anyways, my question is this: If you have troops outside a civ's border, declare war, and then move them in on the same turn, will the same repurcusions occur?

I am certain that you can declare war and move troops in on a subsequent, turn without triggering a negative world opinion... but on the same turn?

I'm thinking that the only trigger is declaring war while your own troops are within your soon-to-be enemy's borders... but I am wondering if any of you guys know for sure.

thanks!

	10-02-2003 02:52									#2
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I think it is OK to enter after the DoW. In fact, I'm sure of it.

	10-02-2003 03:22									#3
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Cool, thanks.

But if the whole world wants my head on a pike after I do it, I'm gonna tell 'em it was cuz you said so !

	10-02-2003 07:29									#4
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Declaring war and then attacking is "good" for the international civ community; but ...

Declaring war, and then allowing the enemy to attack YOUR country is "better" for your NATIONAL community, i.e., your own citizens. Less war weariness and the opportunity to trigger MPPs.

	10-02-2003 07:33									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Jaybe Declaring war, and then allowing the enemy to attack YOUR country is "better" for your NATIONAL community, i.e., your own citizens. Less war weariness and the opportunity to trigger MPPs.

By "your country" do you mean an actual city, or can it be a troop that they attack?

If it can be a troop, then that's almost too easy, as I can simply dangle a single unit, allow it to be slaughtered, and then benefit from not being the 'first-to-attack'.

	10-02-2003 07:55									#6
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I'm not sure about the war weariness aspects of that, but MPPs are triggered if an AI civilization attacks one of your cities or one of your troops that is in your own or neutral territory. If your troops are in enemy territory when they get hit, it won't trigger MPPs. Also, if an AI civ declares on you and then moves a lot of troops into your territory, even if they don't attack immediately, I believe that usually triggers MPPs as well.

	10-02-2003 09:50									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Okay, I'm suffering a memory loss here...MPPS?

	10-02-2003 10:14									#8
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Mutual Protection Pacts.

quote: Also, if an AI civ declares on you and then moves a lot of troops into your territory, even if they don't attack immediately, I believe that usually triggers MPPs as well.

Ahh, no. The only way for the MPP to be triggered is if an attack takes place. Bombardment of tile improvements counts as an attack.

He moves into your territory, you can attack those attacking units and wipe them to the last man without triggering his MMPs. If those units harm a hair on a worker's head in your territory that triggers all of your MPPs.

	10-02-2003 11:36									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Villain By "your country" do you mean an actual city, or can it be a troop that they attack? If it can be a troop, then that's almost too easy, as I can simply dangle a single unit, allow it to be slaughtered, and then benefit from not being the 'first-to-attack'.

Yes, dangle the unit or especially a worker. I intend to dangle an Elite Cossack in about 4 turns, myself (I have MAs).

	10-02-2003 12:53									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

First, let me clarify the MPP issue, as noone of the previous posters has got it quite right yet (notyoueither was close, but forgot the second point below):

You will trigger a MPP that the enemy has with a third civ by:

1) Attacking an enemy unit/city/tile that is inside his own territory.
This includes bombardment, but note that you may attack/bombard enemy units that are inside your teritory or in no-mans-land or a third civ's territory without triggering the MPP.
2) Ending your turn with a unit inside the enemy's borders.


Regarding WW - I'm pretty sure that WW is
not affected by who attacks first, but it is affected by who declares the war. I.e., you get more WW if you declare the war than if the enemy declares it, but the first attack doesn't matter anymore than later attacks.


And finally, to the original question: Yes, you may attack the same turn without any rep hit (at least without any more rep hits than declaring war and attacking the next turn would give you).

	10-02-2003 17:37									#11
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another point about war weariness: if its your enemy who declares war you even get a period of reversed ww where your people become happy for some turns

	10-02-2003 20:55									#12
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quote: Originally posted by theNiceOne And finally, to the original question: Yes, you may attack the same turn without any rep hit (at least without any more rep hits than declaring war and attacking the next turn would give you).

Just so I'm 100% clear on this (and ignoring any MPP issues):

I have a unit inside enemy territory and I then declare war -- I will take a rep hit.

I have a unit just outside enemy territory. I declare war, and on that turn I move him in. -- I will NOT take a rep hit (ie. Civs will not say "We remember what you did to so-and-so" and they will not think I'm a back-stabbing jerk)

	10-02-2003 23:07									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Villain Just so I'm 100% clear on this (and ignoring any MPP issues): I have a unit inside enemy territory and I then declare war -- I will take a rep hit. I have a unit just outside enemy territory. I declare war, and on that turn I move him in. -- I will NOT take a rep hit (ie. Civs will not say "We remember what you did to so-and-so" and they will not think I'm a back-stabbing jerk)

You are correct, Sir!

	11-02-2003 18:39									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Villain Just so I'm 100% clear on this (and ignoring any MPP issues): I have a unit inside enemy territory and I then declare war -- I will take a rep hit. I have a unit just outside enemy territory. I declare war, and on that turn I move him in. -- I will NOT take a rep hit (ie. Civs will not say "We remember what you did to so-and-so" and they will not think I'm a back-stabbing jerk)

hi ,

you will take the rep hit , but hey , that is how the AI does it half of the time , .....

its really intresting to use it , .... (!)

surprise , surprise

have a nice day

	13-02-2003 20:34									#15
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quote: Originally posted by theNiceOne First, let me clarify the MPP issue, as noone of the previous posters has got it quite right yet (notyoueither was close, but forgot the second point below): You will trigger a MPP that the enemy has with a third civ by: 1) Attacking an enemy unit/city/tile that is inside his own territory. This includes bombardment, but note that you may attack/bombard enemy units that are inside your teritory or in no-mans-land or a third civ's territory without triggering the MPP. 2) Ending your turn with a unit inside the enemy's borders. Regarding WW - I'm pretty sure that WW is not affected by who attacks first, but it is affected by who declares the war. I.e., you get more WW if you declare the war than if the enemy declares it, but the first attack doesn't matter anymore than later attacks. And finally, to the original question: Yes, you may attack the same turn without any rep hit (at least without any more rep hits than declaring war and attacking the next turn would give you).

This is NOT true. A MPP can ONLY be triggered by an attack in enemy lands . I KNOW this from experience. In a game long ago both Russia and myself had MPPS with most of the civ's in the game, we were the dominant civ's but whoever triggerd the MPP's would lose because the rest of the world would enter the war against the offender. I declared War on the Russians, Landed 100+ units with an amphib invasion ended my turn WITHOUT attacking. NO MPPS WERE TRIGGERED. the next turn Russia attacked a destroyer on my coastline and they became the CIV 3 equivelent of Iraq. (with no French to bail their a$$es out.)

	14-02-2003 13:17									#16
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What can I say, except that I have triggered MPPs by ending my turn with one military unit inside the enemy borders without any attacking. So there must be something else that attacking that traiggers an MPP.

I see now that I was a bit unclear in my previous post. What I meant is that an MPP is triggered if the entire game turn is ended while you have a unit inside the enemy's borders.

So Mad Bomber: Are you 100% sure that the Russians didn't attack you on the same turn that you entered their territory?

I.e:
1) During your turn you enter Russian territory.
2) During the Russian turn they attack you and trigger the MPP.
3) The game turn ends, and now your units would have triggered the MPP if Russia had not already done so.

	14-02-2003 19:41									#17
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So if you have an enemy unit in your territory for an entire turn it triggers an MPP??.... very interesting.... I will have to give this some further study. Of course, how often do you declare war and the AI does not attack you? This could be useful info for MP however.

	14-02-2003 21:07									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber So if you have an enemy unit in your territory for an entire turn it triggers an MPP??....

This is apparently correct. I was just playing as the Vikings, I had an MPP w/ the Babs and declared war on the Iroquois. The Iroquois unit moved toward one of my injured units, but never attacked. After he was in my territory for 1 turn, the Babs declared war on them.

I thought that 'fighting' of some sort had to take place to trigger MPP's, but I guess not. Perhaps just the presence of troops is an 'act of war'.

	15-02-2003 06:14									#19
	Remove this text

I do not believe this is true. Testing is in order, but from personal experience fighting is required.