12-02-2003 00:32									#31
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Hey spikey - I'm still here 'cos I've got a bloody night class (2 actually) wot you doin burnin the midnight oil?

SG[1]

	12-02-2003 00:44									#32
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It is. It's somewhat frustrating for traditional SP players at first. They believe (with good reason) that they understand the game thoroughly and have mastered it. So how much harder to play against humans? And when they find out how different a game it is, they don't feel like a master anymore.

The AI is stupid and predictable. Most humans are neither. It's as different as Night and Day. Your opponents have also mastered SP, and their attacks will be 10x more clever than any attack that you've ever done to the AI. (since the AI is so stupid, you really don't need to be clever to beat it. Just follow the formula) There are no formulas or tricks against humans because for every one you think up, a counter has been devised. And if you try to use the same formula or trick every game, you will be soundly trounced. You may have favorites, but you have to mix them up. You have to make your opponents think you're doing something that you're not. Make them waste their resources.

You can be sloppy against the AI. Against a human, a single mistake can make a huge difference.

The game itself is not different, but how you view/interact with your opponents is vastly different

BUT THAT"S WHAT MAKES IT SO MUCH FUN.
Succeeding at baiting the AI into a trap may be satisfying, but baiting a human into a trap is much more satisfying, and taunting an AI doesn't really cut it.

The game was designed to make it challenging. We've all learned the game and disected every phase of the game so thoroughly that the AI can't offer us a decent fight anymore.
With humans, the game is challenging again, and every game brings something different.

Winning is more satisfying when you don't do it every time.
But after all that, once you adjust, it's not that hard. You will find yourself looking for another fix of MP and playing less SP.

	12-02-2003 01:09									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Hey spikey - I'm still here 'cos I've got a bloody night class (2 actually) wot you doin burnin the midnight oil? SG[1]

Hehe I am at home........I don't actually post much from work at all......I try to work instead.

However, I work from home a bit when I'm not teaching, so sometimes it doesn't work out as I planned.

	12-02-2003 05:15									#34
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quote: Originally posted by rah True, but with the AI's obsession with choosing food over trade, the odds are that the size two city is only producing 1 trade arrow, unless there's a food special that gets a trade bonus in reach.

Its a human opponent and a very good player.

The thing is, to deliver to the city that demands the trade I have to make a big detour and I have another task for the ship. So I thought, dump the trade off at the well established city, which would definitely have lots of improvements and is probably size 8 by now, and maybe pick up the trade route with the other city next time.

Interesting question and responses so I'm glad I raised it. Thanks.

	12-02-2003 10:00									#35
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The only argument I can see for the demanding city in this case is if you are neck and neck for a particular tech(wonder,unit) and a larger 1 time pay off could be decisive or at least give you first crack at something deemed important.


This isn't a 2 player game is it? .

	12-02-2003 11:02									#36
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Good point Smash....there is no doubt that the greater long term route is ideal, but if its a race to something i guess the one time payoff is worth the consideration too.

i have always like cities on "another" continent myself

	12-02-2003 18:02									#37
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What's the old joke. If you take care of business now, the future takes care of itself. It's hard to think real long term when if you do it right, your oponent has no future.

	13-02-2003 02:14									#38
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thats why i dont set trade routes up with anyone but you.......i figure you will always finish strong and build your infastructure...thereby helping me indirectly

i am not about to pump my caravans into some empire i plan to take over in the near future....

	13-02-2003 03:48									#39
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I hate sending caravans on long treks to small cities that demand the cargo... because many times, by the time it gets there, the city doesn't demand it anymore.

So I just deliver the caravan as soon as I can to a large city. Since you are playing a human, the odds are it is using the trade squares and has some improvements.

	13-02-2003 06:07									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I hate sending caravans on long treks to small cities that demand the cargo... because many times, by the time it gets there, the city doesn't demand it anymore. So I just deliver the caravan as soon as I can to a large city. Since you are playing a human, the odds are it is using the trade squares and has some improvements.

That's a major consideration - when the ship was next to the city it didn't demand the trade and was too small to bother with - when I move it away it starts demanding, if I move it back, it will probably stop demanding............

I can't post the map because its an active game but I might after I've delivered to my unwilling trading partner. You'll get a laugh out of it.

	13-02-2003 07:28									#41
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it shouldn't switch back and forth just like that.....but tech and other factors do come into play....

i used to think each city had a certain time limit for demands..but i think we all know that it just a myth and can be proven false by mathematics.....

	13-02-2003 10:58									#42
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If a lot of other caravans are being delivered to the city, it can change quickly and often. Time is money, so take the money

	13-02-2003 11:10									#43
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The worst part is if my opponent sees the cara he's just the type to reduce arrows.

Lucky I am host

	13-02-2003 11:44									#44
	Increase the size of your Attachments

That's part of the game. As rah suggested, keep him on his toes. You never know what might come off those ships

	13-02-2003 14:57									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse The worst part is if my opponent sees the cara he's just the type to reduce arrows.

Is it Deity perchance?

	13-02-2003 16:25									#46
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- can't be - he has too much lag on his satelite dish.

SG[1]

	13-02-2003 16:30									#47
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Hehe compared to a 56K modem the satellite broadband will be grease lightning, even with higher latency than normal broadband.

	13-02-2003 18:34									#48
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quote: Originally posted by War4ever it shouldn't switch back and forth just like that.....but tech and other factors do come into play.... i used to think each city had a certain time limit for demands..but i think we all know that it just a myth and can be proven false by mathematics.....

Samson did some great work on this.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...54&pagenumber=1

It's not the easiest thing to understand and figure out every single detail, but the general gist is useful. I have used the info to improve my percentage that a city will still demand what i'm sending on some of the slightly longer routes. Sometimes it's easy to see that what you're delivering is never going to be still demanded in a few turns. While granted, in MP you don't have a lot of time to go through the details every turn, but the general themes are worth knowing. All the people that contributed deserve some credit.

RAH

	14-02-2003 02:25									#49
	Inflate your Upload Space

i have read thatand i understand the gist of it too....but gist, and reality are two differnt things in MP when you have limited time....

as for ships...anytime i see one i panic, b/c more than likely its just a dip which isn't going to really hurt you..but if its more than one ship, i grab for the handles

	14-02-2003 03:49									#50
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Just the city size and tech path are a good indicator most of the time. Paying attention to those can be done in the limited time in mp, and you won't get burned much.

	14-02-2003 06:12									#51
	Put an end to popups!

agreed, but by the time the mid game shows up, sometimes i quit paying attention....

my attention span for civ isnt' what it used to be......

	14-02-2003 18:34									#52
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In extreme cases you might even forget you are playing whilst playing.

	14-02-2003 19:01									#53
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quote: Originally posted by War4ever agreed, but by the time the mid game shows up, sometimes i quit paying attention.... my attention span for civ isnt' what it used to be......

Yes, TFs can be distracting. (of course that is based completely on hearsay.)

RAH

	14-02-2003 19:33									#54
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? TF ? or am I being naive?

SG[1]

	14-02-2003 22:38									#55
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No, while it's a reasonably private joke among a few of us that I prefer not to share at this time, Please feel free to substitute "not that obscure of a sexual favor" for TF and you will get the general gist.

RAH

	16-02-2003 15:02									#56
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If they can't figure out what a TF is, they have never had one

	16-02-2003 16:17									#57
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Thanks - :comprehension: --- I was thinking
SG[1]

	16-02-2003 16:33									#58
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What?

	16-02-2003 16:55									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Thanks - :comprehension: --- I was thinking SG[1]

Nah, War's euphemism of choice is 'the hippie lettuce', which is a cool euphemism.

	17-02-2003 05:31									#60
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Delivered the cara to the non-demanding city and got 32 lousy roubles for it.