10-02-2003 07:33									#1
	Is it better to deliver a cara to a small city that wants it or big one that doesn't? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I have this dilemna at the moment. I can deliver a cara to a small size 2 city that demands the trade (cloth) or to a large city, about size 8, that doesn't demand the trade.

Both cities are about the same distance from the city that produced the cara but the size 8 city is on the same continent as the cara producing city and the size 2 city which demands the trade is on an island.

Which city should I send the cara to?

	10-02-2003 08:20									#2
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whats in the big city improvement wise, do you have the optimal path set up, rail, road ect?

	10-02-2003 08:28									#3
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Its not my city so I don't know. Both cities belong to a different civ. There is no road link to my civ.

	10-02-2003 14:09									#4
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Size 2. Demanded goods on a different continent should pay better.

I'm Assuming the government types of both cities are the same.

-------------------------

SG(2)

	10-02-2003 15:32									#5
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I'd plump for the size 2 as well..........the payoff should be ok, and for ongoing the city wont be size 2 forever.

	10-02-2003 16:14									#6
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike I'd plump for the size 2 as well..........the payoff should be ok, and for ongoing the city wont be size 2 forever.

In addition a size 2 is more likely to grow to size 3 by the time you despatch the van.

DrSpike ... what happened to Ricardo?

-----------------------

SG(2)

	10-02-2003 16:25									#7
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You really don't have enough information to make an "exact" choice. Either city could be better depending on a lot of information you really don't know.

	10-02-2003 16:29									#8
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Like?

	10-02-2003 16:33									#9
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City improvements for a start... what is the trade level of both cities. Are they actually working the trade squares that are available to the city... If you have a harbor, does either of the cities...

There are a lot of factors that come into play...

	10-02-2003 16:40									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits DrSpike ... what happened to Ricardo? ----------------------- SG(2)

Ricardo will make an imperious return, but for now I thought LeChuck would make a nice change.

	10-02-2003 18:37									#11
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I'd deliver it to the larger city in most cases, unless the terrain really sucks around the larger city. The odds are that the larger city will have more than twice the trade arrows of the smaller city so the bonus will be bigger. And if you've rigged your cities with roads right, you still get the road bonus even without being connected.

	10-02-2003 19:05									#12
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quote: Originally posted by rah And if you've rigged your cities with roads right, you still get the road bonus even without being connected.

Good point...

	10-02-2003 19:21									#13
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I would go with the smaller demanding city, unless you can get the road bonus.

Also much depends on the commodity, since demand bonuses differ considerably.

A good general rule to go by is to pick the city that provides more benefits that MULTIPLY base payments.

Of course, the best and exact answer can be found in Samson's thread detailing commodity payments.

	10-02-2003 19:46									#14
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quote: Originally posted by solo Of course, the best and exact answer can be found in Samson's thread detailing commodity payments.

Yeah... but knowing how the value is calculated doesn't do you any good if you don't know specifically what all the variables in the other city are

	10-02-2003 19:57									#15
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True, but with the AI's obsession with choosing food over trade, the odds are that the size two city is only producing 1 trade arrow, unless there's a food special that gets a trade bonus in reach. Once a city gets to size 8, all the good food squares have already been selected so trade squares might actually be selected. And unless they've been constantly at war, there's been time for some infrastructure to be built, especially roads.

	10-02-2003 20:13									#16
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All valid points. But you will be able to see if roads are in place, and see if there is any trade squares within the city zone. As you know, the AI builds it's cities based on food alone... and seems to care less (or nothing) for production and trade.

	11-02-2003 02:19									#17
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AI seems to go for Food first, then Shields. I've seen AI mine a hill where a nearby hill was Wine, which would have given Trade in addition to Shields. Apparently the other hill was closer. Never got around to the Wine later, either. In Despotism AI will Irrigate & Road Plains, seems to wait for Monarchy before starting on the Grass. In Republic AI will Irrigate Desert and turn Forest into Plains.

Regarding AH's question, the Different Continent Bonus is x2, and the Demanded Commodity Bonus for Cloth is x5/2. I would take a look at the terrain around each city and try to figure out whether the bigger city has more than 5 times as much Trade Arrows as the littler. Then I'd ask myself if I was going to try to RD/RR to the bigger city on the same continent sometime to boost the ongoing Trade Route.

AH, can you capture and post an image of the two cities in question?

Last edited by Elephant on 11-02-2003 at 02:34

	11-02-2003 04:08									#18
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Generally I would say deliver to the city that has the most trade potential.

Which of the 2 cities do you think will become the better of the 2, size and trade arrow wise?.The one time payoff is great but the real meat is in the long term routes.

If its mp,then you may want to limit the number of cities you deliver to and control the # of foreign routes an opposing civ has.In this case it may be wise to choose a city that is easily accessed over other factors.

Finally,is that choice of cities going to bring great effect to my opponent?...maybe I don't want to prop up his/her cities with lucrative trade routes!?

	11-02-2003 19:38									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Smash Finally,is that choice of cities going to bring great effect to my opponent?...maybe I don't want to prop up his/her cities with lucrative trade routes!?

BUT it's so hard to turn down those FANTASTIC bonuses. But you are right, you do limit how many cities of theirs that you use. Deliver caravans from 10 different cities of yours to one city of his, you end up with the greater advantage.

	11-02-2003 19:47									#20
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quote: Originally posted by rah BUT it's so hard to turn down those FANTASTIC bonuses. But you are right, you do limit how many cities of theirs that you use. Deliver caravans from 10 different cities of yours to one city of his, you end up with the greater advantage.

... until he rearranges his workers to minimize trade, or disbands the city .

	11-02-2003 20:42									#21
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That's why it was best to choose a city on ocean. You could move the ship in and unload before he could minimize the city to burn your bonus. Overland it's easier to pimp you.
I've never seen anyone disband a large city just to burn you out of the trade route.

	11-02-2003 21:48									#22
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Am I right in thinking that in MP you could - given the time - take all the workers of a city off just while the importunate caravan was being delivered and then put them back so as to sustain no loss yourself?

SG[1]

	11-02-2003 21:53									#23
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Hehe it is tricky to time the removal of your workers.

	11-02-2003 22:21									#24
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Yes, it can be tricky, but I have done it quite a few times. Two factors are important.
1. By sea or land. By sea sometimes you don't see it coming so your reaction time is quite limited. By land it's easier.
2. Order of turn. If the person moves right before you, you have plenty of time to take the workers off, but if he waits to move them in till the end of his turn, you usually don't have the time to switch them back.

If the person moves right after you, he can deliver the carvans first in his turn and you don't have time to take the workers off. (unless you do it before you end your turn which we consider a no no because it slows your turn down)

So yes it can be tricky, but if done right, you can really really limit the bonus they get.

And then there's my favorite, you see the ships heading in to unload. You frantically start pulling workers off (or moving them from trade to production/food) You give a sigh of relieve that you finish sabotaging your trade before the caravan delivers, but lo and behold, vet crusaders start unloading from the ship and pound the city into submission. Oooooooops, And maybe he was a unit or two short to take the city but in your panic to sabotage the trade you forgot to buy up a defensive or offensive unit. The turn ends, and your turn starts, and the stick you're holding is considerably short.

RAH

	11-02-2003 22:26									#25
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quote: Originally posted by rah And then there's my favorite, you see the ships heading in to unload. You frantically start pulling workers off (or moving them from trade to production/food) You give a sigh of relieve that you finish sabotaging your trade before the caravan delivers, but lo and behold, vet crusaders start unloading from the ship and pound the city into submission. Oooooooops, And maybe he was a unit or two short to take the city but in your panic to sabotage the trade you forgot to buy up a defensive or offensive unit. The turn ends, and your turn starts, and the stick you're holding is considerably short. RAH

Like Wile E Coyote, smug after laying a trap for Roadrunner, not realising that the trap has gone wrong, and that he is holding a smoking stick of dynamite.

	11-02-2003 23:41									#26
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Yes, freaking funny.
This usually occurs after they've sent in a couple of boats with caravans already. You see the next set of ships and don't even think about other possibilities. (of course, after being burned a few times, your thought processes are likely to change.)

Markus was the first one to do this to me, and I will admit, it was quite a surprise at the time.
BEND OVER, HERE IT COMES.

RAH

	12-02-2003 00:07									#27
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The more I hear the more I think that MP is a VERY different game to SP

SG[1]

	12-02-2003 00:26									#28
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Yeah... more unpredictable... and more fun. The AI is just so stupid and is far too repetitive. Lord only knows what a Human is going to do to you

	12-02-2003 00:27									#29
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Yeah you actually have opposition.

The only SP games that pique my interest these days are games like the fiendish scenario you set up for the succession game. I am looking forward to that......if I ever get my turns.

	12-02-2003 00:31									#30
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Li'l' ol' me - fiendish

SG[1]