10-02-2003 08:06									#1
	A Typical Night of Left Wing Bias From 60 Minutes Inflate your Upload Space

Tonight - de-regulation of power in Montana, very very bad; federal shell case fingerprinting, very very good.

But the problem in Montana resulted from the lack of laws protecting the owners - stockholders - from their own thieving employees and "advisors" like Goldman Sachs, not de-regulation. The board of Montana Power and Goldman Sachs made millions by selling off assets after de-regulation increased their value while the stockholders were intentionally kept out of the loop about what was going on.

And as the NRA pointed out, shell case fingerprinting can easily be foiled in a few minutes by filing down several parts of the gun to alter the fingerprint. A federal program for creating a database of guns (and their owners) will only create another black market of people employed to alter these guns after sold from dealers.

	10-02-2003 08:07									#2
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Why do I imagine you foaming at the mouth and crushing the remote in your hands while you watched it?

	10-02-2003 08:08									#3
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While I was watching the story on South/North Korea I was thinking it was blatantly right wing.

	10-02-2003 08:10									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker A federal program for creating a database of guns (and their owners) will only create another black market of people employed to alter these guns after sold from dealers.

Job creation

	10-02-2003 08:12									#5
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Sounds like some good informative TV. Thanks for the heads up here on the West Coast.

	10-02-2003 08:14									#6
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Man, lack of laws protecting the owners. Damn that's rich. Good one Berserker.

	10-02-2003 08:14									#7
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Well there are, Duncan. Shareholders get the shaft.

	10-02-2003 08:15									#8
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The existing serial numbers on guns can also be filed off. Does that mean we should stop putting serial numbers on guns? Of course not.

Shell casing finger printing will solve many many crimes just like barrel finger printing would and serial number tracing already has.

	10-02-2003 08:16									#9
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Berzerker,

It just happens that a bunch of experts - IEEE Fellows to be specific - disagrees with you. They think deregulation in that sector is Bad.

	10-02-2003 08:17									#10
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(Honest question)
Do the Electrical Engineers actually do much of anything regarding the power grid?

I was under the impression they were mostly circuit designer type people, and creating standards...

	10-02-2003 08:18									#11
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Power deregulation would be great for consumers as long as a neutral thrid party controled the distribushion lines. Also there would have to be a strong watch dog agency to prevent greedy a-holes from manipulating the market the way Enron did in California.

	10-02-2003 08:51									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Asher (Honest question) Do the Electrical Engineers actually do much of anything regarding the power grid? I was under the impression they were mostly circuit designer type people, and creating standards...

Engineers do get promoted into management.

	10-02-2003 08:51									#13
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Frogger -

quote: Why do I imagine you foaming at the mouth and crushing the remote in your hands while you watched it?

Hard to say, maybe a one track imagination? I'm constantly amused by the bias put out by these supposedly unbiased "journalists".

Asher -

quote: While I was watching the story on South/North Korea I was thinking it was blatantly right wing.

How so?

Duncan -

quote: Man, lack of laws protecting the owners. Damn that's rich. Good one Berserker.

When a law prohibits me from stealing your money except when you're a stockholder, I'd call that a lack of laws protecting your property rights.

Oerdin -

quote: The existing serial numbers on guns can also be filed off. Does that mean we should stop putting serial numbers on guns? Of course not.

Will the innocent be put in jail by mis-identifying filed off serial numbers? That can happen with fingerprinting, you know. I commit murder with an altered gun and instead of using the fingerprint to catch me, people with guns showing similar fingerprints in the database become suspects. As to your question, the only viable reason for serial numbers is for manufacturers and consumers to have the means of identifying their guns with regard to warranties and ownership rights. Not creating a federal database so government knows who has the guns, NYC created such a database and then later used it to confiscate guns.

quote: Shell casing finger printing will solve many many crimes just like barrel finger printing would and serial number tracing already has.

Shell case and barrel fingerprinting are used now to solve crimes without a database and serial numbers merely take advantage of a practice employed by manufacturers for the benefit of manufacturers and consumers.

UR -

quote: It just happens that a bunch of experts - IEEE Fellows to be specific - disagrees with you. They think deregulation in that sector is Bad.

Gee, how can I argue with that? Oh yeah, I disagree with them, de-regulation is good.

	10-02-2003 08:52									#14
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Power generation is a natural monopoly, or at least it leads to cartels. It takes truckloads of $ to start a power company.

	10-02-2003 08:55									#15
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quote: And as the NRA pointed out, shell case fingerprinting can easily be foiled in a few minutes by filing down several parts of the gun to alter the fingerprint. A federal program for creating a database of guns (and their owners) will only create another black market of people employed to alter these guns after sold from dealers.

And as the other guy pointed out you can put on gloves to prevent showing your fingerprints but we still have a lot of criminals that don't do it.


On another note do you guys that feel that if the United States was to leave Korea the North would attack the South? If so how long do you think it would take?

	10-02-2003 08:56									#16
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Nothing is fool proof or perfect in this world. Every thing and I do mean everything is subject to being miss used, however, that doesn't mean we should just give everything up or stop using technics which are effective in the right circomstances. We just need to be aware of the limitations each technique has so that we don't rely upon them to do things thay cannot accurately do.

Used correctly both data bases will help solve many crimes faster then we are able to do today.

	10-02-2003 09:00									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Engineers do get promoted into management.

I'm just wondering why you deemed them experts because 99.9% of them aren't qualified in economics or even dealing with a power grid.

	10-02-2003 09:04									#18
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quote: Power generation is a natural monopoly, or at least it leads to cartels. It takes truckloads of $ to start a power company.

It isn't natural, it's just what happens when government uses "taxes" to benefit friends in high places. The building of the transcontinental railroad is a good example - a man named Judah got investors to fund the building of a railway over the Sierra Nevadas from Sacramento to Reno, but politicians used our "taxes" to enrich special interests who were competing to build the rail across the USA. Needless to say, all that "free" money made it difficult for the private sector to compete.

	10-02-2003 09:07									#19
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I was "touched" by the general in charge of US forces in NK crying on national TV.

	10-02-2003 09:13									#20
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I saw that that bit. He got all puffy eyed when they asked him about how it made him feel when the U.S. flag was burned by SK nationalists/anarchists/communist groups.

	10-02-2003 09:15									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I'm just wondering why you deemed them experts because 99.9% of them aren't qualified in economics or even dealing with a power grid.

1. What is "qualified?"
2. How do you know they aren't?

Interesting assumptions.

	10-02-2003 09:18									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker It isn't natural, it's just what happens when government uses "taxes" to benefit friends in high places. The building of the transcontinental railroad is a good example - a man named Judah got investors to fund the building of a railway over the Sierra Nevadas from Sacramento to Reno, but politicians used our "taxes" to enrich special interests who were competing to build the rail across the USA. Needless to say, all that "free" money made it difficult for the private sector to compete.

Hm, the very fact that you have just a few railways instead of gazillions means that the barrier to entry is extremely high, which is the same thing with power generation.

Tax or no tax will not make a difference.

	10-02-2003 09:20									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger 1. What is "qualified?" 2. How do you know they aren't? Interesting assumptions.

Qualified as in people with economics degrees and experience in the field.

I think it's a pretty safe assumption that most electrical engineers are unqualified when talking about the effects of privatizing the power grid.

It's certainly not appropriate to consider them "experts" like you did.

	10-02-2003 09:28									#24
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Sheik -

quote: And as the other guy pointed out you can put on gloves to prevent showing your fingerprints but we still have a lot of criminals that don't do it.

I can be a somewhat incompetent criminal and still get an altered gun (even without my knowledge). If more crimes were solved, you'd see more criminals using gloves. But since the system is so overwhelmed thanks to the drug war, there isn't much risk in getting caught based only on fingerprints except maybe for crimes like murder and rape. But theft is largely ignored...so often, the victims of theft are told there's almost no chance they will ever see their property again.

	10-02-2003 09:32									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Qualified as in people with economics degrees and experience in the field. I think it's a pretty safe assumption that most electrical engineers are unqualified when talking about the effects of privatizing the power grid. It's certainly not appropriate to consider them "experts" like you did.

You also can't rely on economists who know sh1t about power generations and distributions.

	10-02-2003 09:39									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Qualified as in people with economics degrees and experience in the field.

In what field, power generation?

quote: Originally posted by Asher I think it's a pretty safe assumption that most electrical engineers are unqualified when talking about the effects of privatizing the power grid. It's certainly not appropriate to consider them "experts" like you did.

You probably don't know what takes to be a Fellow. You could have asked.

	10-02-2003 09:40									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless You also can't rely on economists who know sh1t about power generations and distributions.

The stuff in dispute isn't the technicalities of it (it's been proven in many regions to be entirely feasable), but the economic impact of it on a particular region and set of laws.

Besides, despite the somewhat deceptive term "electric engineer" most people in the IEEE do stuff like design ASICs rather than do anything remotely related to a power grid...

Alberta privatized power a few years back. The first year the prices spiked due to missteps in the process (the government didn't make the regulations and rules for the private market available until just under a year before privatization, so the electric companies didn't make new plants as needed). Since then the prices have resumed normal levels, and now customers have a choice from several power companies.

The competition has forced them to look at alternate ways to grab customers: one company (Enmax) allows you to supply your home with power 100% generated from Wind, for example...

	10-02-2003 09:42									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger In what field, power generation? You probably don't know what takes to be a Fellow. You could have asked.

IEEE fellows are people they deem as making important contributions to the field of engineering science, in what way does this classify them as experts in privatizing electricity grids?

	10-02-2003 09:44									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless You also can't rely on economists who know sh1t about power generations and distributions.

Why do you think the issues with power deregulation has anything to do with power generations and distributions? It's more than possible, it's been done many times before, what's in question is the economics behind it -- when it should be done, and to what extent...

	10-02-2003 09:46									#30
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UR -

quote: Hm, the very fact that you have just a few railways instead of gazillions means that the barrier to entry is extremely high, which is the same thing with power generation. Tax or no tax will not make a difference.

If you're part of a consortium of investors building a railway among a group of cities, it sure does matter if you're taxed to support a politically connected competitor. The reason we see only a few rail systems now is because the government subsidised airlines while regulating the hell out of the railroads once they were built. Government decided how much railroads could charge and many went out of business because they couldn't charge what the market required.
That's why private concerns are reluctant to invest in power production, politicians will effectively nationalise their investments via regulation...