12-02-2003 02:19									#31
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What if there's only 3 candidates?

I think each senator should have 2 fewers vote than the # of candidates, with a maximum of 3 votes, would be a good way to handle it.

	12-02-2003 02:31									#32
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Personally, I think it should be 1 senator, 1 vote. That way you might actually get a diversity of different people as Consuls.

On the other hand, that could mean a dark horse candidate who isn't very good gets picked...

So perhaps 3 votes is good afterall (and is consistent with the system of removal, whereby we can remove one Consul and then the majority is effectively in control anyhow). My argument there is that if you have the initial Consul selection be 1 vote only per person and someone the majority doesn't like gets elected, they'll immediately remove him It's more consistent structure-wise to just let them elect who they want to begin with, even if giving them only 1 vote would enforce more diversity of consul choices... (and you'd need to change the no-con system AGAIN to bring it into alignment with it :rolleyes

So, now that I think about it... let's keep it simple and consistent. Up to 3 votes per member (you don't have to use all of them!).

	12-02-2003 02:39									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Trip What if there's only 3 candidates?

I believe they would/should become Consuls automatically then. We need Consuls to take care of playing the turns and organizing the team at least a bit... if there is not enough people to choose from, then let those that are willing to spend their time show what they can do...

Arnelos, can you confirm what is the current status? How many people are officialy willing to run for Consuls? AFAIK, we are currently at three or four:

me
Trip
notyoueither (because with me and Trip, we'd be three)

+ MWIA?

	12-02-2003 02:42									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Trip What if there's only 3 candidates?

In that case all 3 should get their positions automatically.
Well, it's just a normal RL procedure. Unhappy voters can oppose the 3 if they can provide a replacemant anyway...

	12-02-2003 03:06									#35
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I never thought of that.

But I still think that 3 votes per person is too many... I would prefer 1 per senator to 3.

	12-02-2003 04:15									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos The RP Team has done something similar to what Vondrack has. E_T has put together some stuff, I have others, ruby_maser and Oliverfa have used spreadsheets to do analyses of other in-game information. We don't have anywhere nearly as unified a spreadsheet or system to what it seems Legoland has from Vondrack, but most of those things have been done on seperate spreadsheets or analyses. [...] I just like Vondrack's system because it looks a lot more organized than ours

Arnelos, We are not disorganized. We are roleplaying that we haven't discovered a way to organize reports yet

That was the reason because I proposed the creation of an Information Office, to organize a way to develop and produce these reports in a way they are useful for the team.

And yes, I also think that Vondrack's system id nicer

	12-02-2003 04:19									#37
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Firaxis: The game should write a small file to your harddisk that can be opened and analyzed by such Excel Wizards...

Firaxis said that?

	12-02-2003 04:47									#38
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Pity we can’t use Single Transferable Vote, which is what the Australians and Irish use in cases like these... (any Australians or Irish to back me up?) It also happens to be my favourite voting method

	12-02-2003 05:37									#39
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack I believe they would/should become Consuls automatically then. We need Consuls to take care of playing the turns and organizing the team at least a bit... if there is not enough people to choose from, then let those that are willing to spend their time show what they can do... Arnelos, can you confirm what is the current status? How many people are officialy willing to run for Consuls? AFAIK, we are currently at three or four: me Trip notyoueither (because with me and Trip, we'd be three) + MWIA?

FYI: I'm thinking about running. My schedule seems to have stabilized enough for the near future that I can do it at least for a few weeks at the least.

	12-02-2003 05:42									#40
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quote: Originally posted by pikesfan Pity we can’t use Single Transferable Vote, which is what the Australians and Irish use in cases like these... (any Australians or Irish to back me up?) It also happens to be my favourite voting method

I'll agree that it's a great voting method, but it's hellishly complex to explain to people who don't know it...

	12-02-2003 05:42									#41
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We can perform transferring on one single vote in Norwegian county elections too... It's just to add some person to the list, reprioritize a selected person, or remove him/her.
I guess it's too complicated to use here, though.

	12-02-2003 06:34									#42
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I'm willing, and hopefully deemed able

	12-02-2003 06:48									#43
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Then I can nominate you in the new thread if you like.

	12-02-2003 07:47									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos I'll agree that it's a great voting method, but it's hellishly complex to explain to people who don't know it...

There must be some way of explaining it easily if Australians use it Can’t we just say “Try it, you’ll like it” I’ve always wanted to be the teller for an STV election Alas, it’s a skill I never get to use

<<< Look, I even packed up all the materials necessary and had my donkey carry them to the forum

	12-02-2003 09:16									#45
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Is transferrable voting anything like preferential voting? Or is it actually complicated, and not just thought to be?

	12-02-2003 10:01									#46
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It’s preferential voting, only extended to elections with more than one seat. The voting itself is simple, just mark "1" for first choice, "2" for second choice, etc.

The counting... well, some do find it complicated especially if you try to describe it. It’s one of those things that’s easier to do (using an example to show how to do it) rather than to describe how to do. There is actually a simple way of counting (Irish) and a more complicated way of counting (Australian).

I could try and find a good site tomorrow, but a Google search under "Single Transferable Vote" will probably give you more information and propaganda for and against than you ever wanted to know about it

	12-02-2003 10:06									#47
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I agree. The voting is painfully easy... just prioritize the candidates (or choices).

The counting is somewhat complex.

I could explain it here, but it would be easier for you to just look it up on the web (they explain it better than I probably could).

I'll copy and paste an explanation here if I find one and people are interested though...

	12-02-2003 10:41									#48
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The most difficult concept is the idea that under STV you need only a certain number of votes to get elected and no more.

It amounts to a fraction that varies depending on how many people are to be elected.

And I hope that didn’t confuse you so I put the mathematical part in small print so you could feel like you didn’t have to read it if you didn’t want to

	12-02-2003 11:00									#49
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So, who thinks we could and should impliment such a type of voting?

	12-02-2003 11:04									#50
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Ok... here's the formula for the quota of votes needed to pass the hurdle:

Q = # of votes needed to be one of the winners
B = # of ballots (total)
S = # of seats open

Q = [B / (S+1) ]+1

So if you have 12 people voting on 2 seats, at least 5 of them need to vote for a guy for him to win.

The cool part of the system is that it adds complexity so that votes are not wasted...

If someone in our example wins at least 5 seats in the first round, he "wins" and gets one of the open seats (or more than one person "wins" if all the votes line up that well).

Where the system gets interesting is after the first "round".

If no-one has enough votes in the first round, the guy with the least vote goes bye-bye and his votes are redistributed to the other candidates based upon second choices. Then you check to see if anyone makes the quota again.

This is repeated until at least someone meets the quota.

The key part of the system is that you'll obviously end up with people with MORE than the required number of votes... this is where it gets complicated but what makes it such a cool system. In our example, a guy only needs 5 votes to "win" a seat, so if he gets more than 5 votes, you'd think they're wasted... wrong!

If he got, say... 7 votes after the first round and the other three candidates divided the other 5 votes available... then the 2 votes over 5-vote minimum that would have gone to the first winner get redistributed proportionally to the other candidates based upon all second choices for people voting for the first guy that "won". So EVERY person who voted for that guy gets 2/5 worth of a vote in favor of their second choice.

When those fractional votes are distributed, you check if anyone makes the quota again.

The system repeats itself until all open seats are filled.

The impact of this system is that it gives you the advantages of a proportional voting system, but in favor of single candidates without the problem of votes being "wasted". So you get to have the advantages of a proportional voting system for electing individuals rather than lists of indivduals (which otherwise wouldn't be possible).

	12-02-2003 21:20									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Ok... here's the formula for the quota of votes needed to pass the hurdle:

Or, if you instead want expressed as the fraction that I darkly hinted at earlier, it’s [1/(number of seats)+1] + 1 vote.

So if you are electing one person, he only needs one-half of the votes [+1 vote] to be elected; two people, they each only need one-third of the votes [+1 vote] to win; three people, they each only need one-fourth of the votes [+1 vote]; twelve people, they each only need one-thirteenth of the votes, etc. etc.

Arnelos, I hope the formula didn’t frighten people off

	12-02-2003 21:34									#52
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Does anyone has an Excel sheet that calculates the formula?

Well it looks like a good one. I specially like the thing that it renders the "useful vote" theory (When you vote someone different from the one you really prefer just to prevent some other from winning) void.

	13-02-2003 00:18									#53
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So, essentially preferential voting combined with a few other systems... looks good. Any idea on how to do it? Will the votes just have to be counted by someone manually?

	13-02-2003 00:55									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep So, essentially preferential voting combined with a few other systems... looks good. Any idea on how to do it? Will the votes just have to be counted by someone manually?

Unfortunately, I don’t see any way that we can make such a poll with the Apolyton poll technology we have now. They have to be counted manually.

Since I have no time or desire to be Consul besides that my Internet connection is too slow to make downloading the save practical I would gladly volunteer to be the counter, as I think Arnelos is going to be a candidate

What people would have to do is e-mail the votes to me, and I would count them and post the results as well as the “ballots” [i.e. each voter’s preferences with the identification of the voter erased] so that people could count along, know how people voted, check my math, etc. Or they could post the votes in a thread if they didn’t care about them being secret.

	13-02-2003 00:58									#55
	Tired of ads?

It wouldn't be terribly hard to count by someone who understands how to do it. The only difficulty I can see that people might complain that they don't quite understand how their own vote is being counted.

A quick explanation is this:

For nearly everyone, your ENTIRE vote will be worth 1 full vote. It may be that 3/5 of your vote goes to one winning candidate and 2/5 goes to another candidate, but regardless of what happens, the major benefit of this system is that your WHOLE vote counts as a whole vote rather than fractions of your vote being effectively wasted.

Best of all, your vote is ONLY split between two candidates (or more) if one of the candidates you are voting for has already won and thus doesn't need the extra fractions of your vote.

	13-02-2003 01:49									#56
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One problem I can see with such a small electorate is how to break ties.

Tossing a lyton piece?
Ties broken in favour of who has been in the Intersite DG the longest [or shortest]?

	13-02-2003 03:19									#57
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: posted by Oliverfa quote: Originally posted by Arnelos The RP Team has done something similar to what Vondrack has. E_T has put together some stuff, I have others, ruby_maser and Oliverfa have used spreadsheets to do analyses of other in-game information. We don't have anywhere nearly as unified a spreadsheet or system to what it seems Legoland has from Vondrack, but most of those things have been done on seperate spreadsheets or analyses. [...] I just like Vondrack's system because it looks a lot more organized than ours Arnelos, We are not disorganized. We are roleplaying that we haven't discovered a way to organize reports yet That was the reason because I proposed the creation of an Information Office, to organize a way to develop and produce these reports in a way they are useful for the team. And yes, I also think that Vondrack's system id nicer

I proposed to create a civil service like the Old Egyptians had in about 2000 BC, but Togas did not allow it!

Aidun

	13-02-2003 03:21									#58
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The one with the most posts win.

Before everyone starts spamming! It's just a joke!

Pikesfan, I think it would be best for you if people post the votes in the forum in adition to PM them to you, because that way noone could acuse you of manipulating the results.

	13-02-2003 04:09									#59
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quote: Originally posted by oliverfa Pikesfan, I think it would be best for you if people post the votes in the forum in adition to PM them to you, because that way noone could acuse you of manipulating the results.

Should I label the votes with the voter’s name or not?

Either: Trip’s vote... or Vote #12...

	13-02-2003 04:36									#60
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I'd say anonimous votes. In every true democracy elections are secret.

Aidun