10-02-2003 10:38									#1
	Consul Speculation... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ok, here's the list of everyone who's either been mentioned by another person or has mentioned themselves interest in executive leadership (and thus is included under the label of "Consul Speculation...").

If we can narrow down who is actually available and willing that might be good.

notyoueither - willing if there are 3 execs
MrWhereItsAt - in a few weeks
Arnelos - unsure of long-term time commitment
Trip - leader of a ITDG Team, wants it
Togas - leader of an ITDG Team, is thinking
Ninot - ???
GodKing - ???
WhiteBandit - ???
Apocalypse - ???
Aeson - doesn't want to, claims not to have time
Thud - running for President of the SPDG
GeneralTacticus - leader of the ACDG

-----------

I will edit the above as the information on possible leaders changes.

	10-02-2003 10:42									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

Personally, if notyoueither is willing to be a Consul, he's got my support.

MrWhereItsAt has the same support, but he says he won't be available for a few weeks? Please clarify... and we need to know how soon the game is going to start.

As for me... I'm leaning toward taking SOME position in the next "term" (or month) worth of time because I believe I should have time for something. Whether that's running for SMC of the SPDG (which I'm toying with), running for Consul here, or upping my involvement again in the RP Team, I don't know.

As for others, I haven't formed any opinions on my own preferences. I just really like the idea of notyoueither and MrWhereItsAt each being Consuls

	10-02-2003 10:58									#3
	Tired of ads?

oh, and btw...

It's election season (and MoO3 is supposed to come out soon )... the Palpatine avatar returns!

	10-02-2003 11:45									#4
	Increase Your PM Length

I'd enjoy the honor of serving as one of Apolyton's first Consuls, but I feel as though it would be irresponsible of me to try to be a leader in this game and in my PTW-team game.

Instead, I'd like the opportunity to put together a top-notch Foreign Affairs team to serve this game.

--Togas

	10-02-2003 12:18									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I don't think, at present, that I'd be able to take part in this as a Consul, as I don't have PTW (It was only released here a few days ago), but I may be able to pester my parents into letting me get it. Keep me on the list for now; I'll tell you if I can't take part.

	10-02-2003 13:11									#6
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

To be clear, I have plenty of time it's just my schedual is very sporadic (to the extent that I don't have a anything resembling a schedual).

	10-02-2003 15:42									#7
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I want to mention myself too, for consul or advisor, but I'm now running for Domestic Minister in the SPDG, so I won't be available here in the near future.

Aidun

	10-02-2003 16:21									#8
	Put an end to popups!

Contrary to what I stated in the sign-up thread, I have changed my mind and would be willing to get involved in the IS-DG to the extent of running for a Consul.

With the exception of my fellow Legos, most people here perhaps not know much about me, so I believe I should say a few words about myself, about what I would be willing/able to do as a Consul, and about how I would expect things to be.


I would definitely not rate myself as a brilliant SP player... My SP skills are at solid Monarch, I have been following the forums here for about a year, hopefully absorbing much of the Poly collective wisdom. In a DG MP, I try to rely on a detailed plan discussed and precised ahead by the team. Whatever the team decides is what is going to be played, unless there is a sudden change of situation, requiring an emergency response, but that goes without saying, I believe...

After some messy start, we got ourselves pretty well organized in Legoland and I believe much of what we are using now would be of great benefit to the ISDG Poly team, too. We have found out that the best way to deal with the game (at least with the opening part) is to have someone proposing detailed plans for the next turn with the rest of the team commenting and suggesting changes.

So, currently, it's like that after playing our turn, I update our Chronicle ASAP (see an example Chronicle entry below... it is usually posted within 2-3 hours of playing the turn) and post a brief summary of moves intended for the next turn. These "very short term plans" are based upon previous "long/er term strategy discussions" organized by our ministers, and include requests for long(er) term strategy decisions to be taken, whenever I can foresee them coming.


I haven't seen anybody proposing a concrete mechanics for playing our ISDG turns, so I think I would better do that now. My idea would be as follows (keep in mind that this is meant for the opening phase of the game, where most turns are precisely planned in advance, with few events demanding an "emergency" response taking place ingame):

1) after getting the save, whichever Consul would be ready to play the turn for us would check to see if there is any other Consul online, probably by checking in at a special private ISDG chatroom. After agreeing upon who will be playing the turn, he would post in a special service thread he's going to play the turn - to make double sure the turn will not be cross-played by two Consuls and to let everybody else know there will be news coming in shortly (members subscribing to this service thread would get a timely notice there is something happening).

2) playing the turn, the Consul would be making notes of every single action taken, to be later posted in the turn report (AFAIK, with 1.14f, there is - due to the extra production load bug - no possibility to correctly load a save "just before hitting the End Turn button", which makes it necessary to load the incoming save and replay every single action taken, if you wish to examine the save at its "valid" (outgoing) state or take accurate screenshots.

3) after playing the save, this Consul would immediately post the list of actions taken in a special thread, making the incoming savegame available from there, too.

4) either he or whoever would be responsible for posting information would then post the current map(s), summary tables, plus whatever other information we agree upon (see my example below). All that ASAP, of course.

5) (preferrably) he would then post a brief summary of proposed moves for the next turn, considering the ministerial and senatorial bills, suggestions etc., including requests to specific executives for whatever long/er term decisions he will be able to foresee the need for (this is to make sure that someone will take care of considering the issue, proposing a solution, initiating a discussion, setting up a poll if necessary... so that once we need to make that decision ingame, it will not be a sole responsibility of the Consuls).


This should work for many turns... once the turns get more complicated and we need to respond to situations that were impossible to foresee/plan ahead for, we may utilize turnchats held within a couple of hours from receiving the save or have a Consul posting the "Start of the Turn" information, arranging for emergency response discussion in the ISDG forum...

If the actual turnplay arrangement is something reasonably close to this, I would be happy to serve as a Consul, posting the information in a way illustrated by the following sample - using a couple of nifty PhotoShop and Excel templates/macros I created for the purpose, I am able to post this information within an hour since playing the turn (on condition I am online, of course... which is the case for most time from 8am to as late as 12pm GMT every day, often even longer). BTW, I am from Europe, so if we are going for Consuls from different timezones, I would be able to cover this part of the world).

Keep in mind, please, that the sample is to illustrate the form, not the content. It is not meant to illustrate my playing style (most of the info is fake anyway), just to give an idea what kind of information I am able to quickly post.

Turn 53: 1700 BC

Actions taken

1) Archer in the northwestern desert moved E
2) Worker near Camulodunum ordered to mine the tile
3) Worker on the Ivory tile ordered to road it
4) Archer W of Lugdunum fortified
5) research slider set to 60%
6) production in Camoludunum changed to Temple

Note: in our Legoland game, we have all our units named, thus referring to them using their short, easy to remember names, not having to use long descriptions like in this example

Map



Summary



Note: the yellow background indicates that the value changed from the previous turn (ever-changing values like number of turns to completion are, however, not background painted to keep the table uncluttered and "important" changes easier to notice). If there is a strong demand to include different info in the table (like the level of corruption, happy/content/unhappy faces etc.), it should not be a problem... just that it is reasonable to keep the table this total width - otherwise it is a bit difficult to view it at once in a forum thread post.

Minimap



Additional Info

Demographics
Top 5 Cities

Savegames
incoming/received save
played/before-the-End-of-Turn save

Note: no actual saves linked to... but normally, these would be links allowing to download the saves.

==================================================
==

And this would get posted in the "very short term plans" thread:

Movement/Action Plans for the next turn

1) Archer in the northwestern desert to NE
2) Entremont to start building Barracks

Agenda

Minister of War - decide on whether to leave the Archers fortified on those hills, maintaining the killing grounds, or advance them against Trondheim
Minister of Construction - decide on the next production job for Lugdunum, prepare new orders for the workers
Minister of Finances - check the slider settings for possible savings not delaying the discovery of Writing

Note: sorry, I can't recall now what exactly are the ministerial posts called in the proposed Constitution


All I would ask for would be some decent server space on Poly to upload the pics to... (one turn eats up like 100-300 kB) but I hope Markos would be able to arrange that.

Well. That's it. Even if I do not get elected, I will be happy to submit my tools (PhotoShop and Excel templates) to anybody being put in charge.

Cheers,
Radek

	10-02-2003 17:20									#9
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

That's amusing Vondrack! I would be willing to vote for you as a consul!

Just my 2 cents about that consul issue: I would prefer to choose three complementary consuls. Just to show an extreme example of what I mean: Not three warmongers nor three builders.

	10-02-2003 17:37									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by oliverfa That's amusing Vondrack! I would be willing to vote for you as a consul! Just my 2 cents about that consul issue: I would prefer to choose three complementary consuls. Just to show an extreme example of what I mean: Not three warmongers nor three builders.

Thank you, oliverfa!

Just in case it is not 100% clear... for most time, I am a non-agressive player, usually trying to build and develop rather than destroy, even though given no other reasonable choice, I will wage war with no hesitation.

However, I believe that whether a Consul is a "builder" or "warmonger" (however difficult it sometimes is to distinguish between them) will matter little. Builders differ from warmongers in the long-term strategy preferred and the long term strategy will be worked out by the team as a whole (at least that's what I believe). It's unlikely that the personal preference of a Consul might steer the flow of the game in an important way, since their task will be mostly to project the collective will of the team into the actual game played, turn by turn.

	10-02-2003 17:37									#11
	Tired of ads?

Damn you Radek, now the others will know why are we ahead in the PtW demogame!

Vondrack for President ...err Consul

	10-02-2003 17:53									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

He surely has enough experience.

Aidun

	10-02-2003 18:10									#13
	Put an end to popups!

hi ,

Vondrack , care to share with us how you made that summary , .....

great stuff

it must be the best detailed summary around ever presented in any game so far , .....

have a nice day

	10-02-2003 18:27									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by panag Vondrack , care to share with us how you made that summary , .....

It is done in Excel, later screengrabbed for easier manipulation and background-enhanced in PhotoShop... It's a rather complex table using lots of formulas and conditional formatting. It requires me to update very few things by hand, most data are updated according to the previous turn info and most changes highlight themselves automatically. I still need to put in a couple of values by hand and check that everything matches the actual info shown ingame, but basically I just make a copy of the table and most values update themselves accordingly.

I would actually make the latest version of the XLS spreadsheet always available for download from the server, since it may be - with some practise and some limitations - used as a fairly useful tool by anyone wishing to plan ahead micromanagement-wise, at least in terms of the few upcoming turns. The spreadsheet is not that smart, but still better than a pencil and a piece of paper... or having to run a sim...

I believe that the data included are self-explanatory, but in case you are confused about something, feel free to ask.

	10-02-2003 18:51									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by vondrack It is done in Excel, later screengrabbed for easier manipulation and background-enhanced in PhotoShop... It's a rather complex table using lots of formulas and conditional formatting. It requires me to update very few things by hand, most data are updated according to the previous turn info and most changes highlight themselves automatically. I still need to put in a couple of values by hand and check that everything matches the actual info shown ingame, but basically I just make a copy of the table and most values update themselves accordingly. I would actually make the latest version of the XLS spreadsheet always available for download from the server, since it may be - with some practise and some limitations - used as a fairly useful tool by anyone wishing to plan ahead micromanagement-wise, at least in terms of the few upcoming turns. The spreadsheet is not that smart, but still better than a pencil and a piece of paper... or having to run a sim... I believe that the data included are self-explanatory, but in case you are confused about something, feel free to ask.

hi ,

the data is self-explanatory (!) , this is food for firaxis thats for sure , .....

so where can we regular people get the above to use it for ourselfs , ....?

wait till Aro sees this , he is going to love this , this is something that should be in any demo game

one clear overview , ..... it really has everything at ones , you dont have to load this and that , now every thing is in it , thats just great ,....

have a nice day

	10-02-2003 19:05									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by panag so where can we regular people get the above to use it for ourselfs , ....?

If you don't mind, I will post the file once the ISDG game starts... the only really working and complete version is the one including our Legoland data and I do not really feel like making that one public...

It will also require me to write some sort of a brief guide explaining how to handle various quirks (mostly the research progress value, as that one is displayed nowhere in the game and you need some experience to adjust it properly - unfortunately, it can't be done fully automatically... under certain conditions, you have to manually override the new research progress value determined automatically), how to add new turns, and how to add new cities, since that is not very obvious when you start from a blank template.

	10-02-2003 21:57									#17
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I also would throw my support behind Vondrack; I guarantee you he can get the job done!

	10-02-2003 23:25									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The RP Team has done something similar to what Vondrack has. E_T has put together some stuff, I have others, ruby_maser and Oliverfa have used spreadsheets to do analyses of other in-game information. We don't have anywhere nearly as unified a spreadsheet or system to what it seems Legoland has from Vondrack, but most of those things have been done on seperate spreadsheets or analyses.

I'm also pretty sure that most teams probably do the same. With turns going by so slowly, it's easy to anally micro-manage everything. I'll grant that we're lucky to have people like E_T on our team, but it's not like E_T and I or others on our team are doing anything other teams likely are not doing (Vondrack being an excellent example).

I just like Vondrack's system because it looks a lot more organized than ours

	11-02-2003 01:16									#19
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My current status is that I'm hoping for someone to run against me for President in the SPDG.
Whether or not I'm President in the SPDG, I have my hopes set on being FAM here. I'm sure Togas has enough to do as our leader in Spain...

As for the future... my name is Consul_Thud already over at CFC

Vondrack has my vote now, but I'd like to have Trip for a little choas, and Arnelos.

	11-02-2003 02:52									#20
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I imagine that Vondrack's spreadsheet has a LOT more stuff on it than the sections that are "published". I had the same thing with my Corruption Spreadsheet, where the sections with all of the calculations are about 4 times the number of columns as the part that is Actually Published.

Vondrack, when you finally post your sheet for us, can you make sre that you save a version that can be read by Excel '97, as that's the version that I use.

E_T

	11-02-2003 04:04									#21
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by E_T I imagine that Vondrack's spreadsheet has a LOT more stuff on it than the sections that are "published". I had the same thing with my Corruption Spreadsheet, where the sections with all of the calculations are about 4 times the number of columns as the part that is Actually Published. Vondrack, when you finally post your sheet for us, can you make sre that you save a version that can be read by Excel '97, as that's the version that I use. E_T

Actually, what you see is what is there...
The only things you do not see are the formulas and conditional formats...

This table is intended to gather the most important information into a compact format only. It allows for simple planning-ahead only, not being really tailored to any extensive analysis. Just keeping track of things. If we need a deeper analysis, we use a custom tailored spreadsheet.

	11-02-2003 04:32									#22
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vondrack - so your spreadsheet is a snapshot of the current turn only? What happens when a city grows or the worked tiles are changed? What needs to be updated? Is corruption (%) just reported, or calculated?

The one spreadsheet of E_T's that I've dealt with, for city planning, is more of a forecast tool, that lets you devise plans for the city's queue, wf, and growth. It has a timeline that allows you to syncronize these elements for maximum efficiency. And he used the most up to date corruption formula from the strategy forum.

From what I've seen so far, we should get these two, and any other Excel/Civ stat wizards to collaborate on a project for this game.

	11-02-2003 05:11									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by dejon vondrack - so your spreadsheet is a snapshot of the current turn only? What happens when a city grows or the worked tiles are changed? What needs to be updated? Is corruption (%) just reported, or calculated? The one spreadsheet of E_T's that I've dealt with, for city planning, is more of a forecast tool, that lets you devise plans for the city's queue, wf, and growth. It has a timeline that allows you to syncronize these elements for maximum efficiency. And he used the most up to date corruption formula from the strategy forum. From what I've seen so far, we should get these two, and any other Excel/Civ stat wizards to collaborate on a project for this game.

Yes, my spreadsheet is basically a snapshot of the turn statistics before the End Turn button is hit. Its primary purpose is to give as much statistical information as possible (from F1, F11, and city screens) in a clear, easy to review form with as little manual work as possible, so that it can be posted promptly after the turn is played. It is statistics, not really an analytical tool (though it has some limited use for planning ahead, too). It can be used as a data source for a specialized analytical sheet/table, though.

Also, note, please, that even though I could squeeze in the corruption formula/percentage if needed, it's currently not there (I was struggling to make the table neat and 800 pixels wide max, which somewhat limited what I was able to put in... corruption percentage did not make it in... ). After all, you can see the effects of corruption in the waste and corruption columns...

From what you can see, the following data need to be checked every turn and possibly adjusted manually: food surplus, building project and its cost (if starting a new one), production and waste, all the commerce related values, cultural rating, net income, treasury value, research progress and cost (if starting a new project or if finishing roads on worked tiles), plus total area and all the rankings. It may seem a lot, but in fact, you are done within a minute, as you easily figure out what's likely to have changed...

	11-02-2003 05:18									#24
	Tired of ads?

Ah, that's different from what we've done. E_T and I have been primarily interested in developing forecasting and planning tools... basically (just to show how anal I've been as Governor of Madrid), we were using that stuff to test out around a half-dozen different plans for long-range (as in 30-50 turns) of production queues for each city and how the workers built under each plan would move and affect each plan.

It was pretty anal to do that, but it's been a huge bonus to have looked at all of those possibilities and gained the ability to clearly see which plan(s) are superior for which priorities and even some plans that are superior for all priorities.

	11-02-2003 05:52									#25
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Ah, that's different from what we've done. E_T and I have been primarily interested in developing forecasting and planning tools... basically (just to show how anal I've been as Governor of Madrid), we were using that stuff to test out around a half-dozen different plans for long-range (as in 30-50 turns) of production queues for each city and how the workers built under each plan would move and affect each plan. It was pretty anal to do that, but it's been a huge bonus to have looked at all of those possibilities and gained the ability to clearly see which plan(s) are superior for which priorities and even some plans that are superior for all priorities.

We have done that, too, fine-tuning our build queues... but that's essentially something different - one spends hours putting such sheets together, mostly for just one or two analysis (as next time, the needed output is a bit different). My table serves (primarily) one purpose: to quickly inform about the current status of an empire, pointing out changes in that status compared to the previous turn.

That's what anyone playing the turn is able to post very quickly, allowing others to absorb the info and start analyzing and discussing it ASAP. Huge forecasting and analytical sheets are a different cup of tea.

As I can see the role of a Consul more oriented towards informing others and feeding them with all kinds of data needed to do various sims/analyses, I presented this table here, in the thread about Consuls. The tables you mention would probably be well suited for a thread on the Ministry of Construction or something like that.

	11-02-2003 07:21									#26
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Interesting. I'll admit its more efficient than our method, which is primarily for the person handling the save (who would be the "Consul" in the inter-site game) posts screenshots of everything they can get as information on their own personal webspace. Then everyone else just links to the screenshots on their webspace.

Oliverfa, ruby_maser, and others then do analyses of the F11, F8, and other screenshot information, I and E_T do analyses of cities and science, etc.

Having it all done by one spreadsheet is sorta neat.

	11-02-2003 21:51									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Firaxis: The game should write a small file to your harddisk that can be opened and analyzed by such Excel Wizards...

	11-02-2003 23:59									#28
	Got spare money?

I'm willing to become a consul if people are willing to give me a shot. I was rusty there for a while after I left the C3DG, but fortunately I've had the opportunity to hone my skills again.

I like the consul idea... as long as decisions can be made and things get done, it would be great. I would certainly be thankful for the system... right now I'm leading my own PTW DG team, beta testing 2 games, working on a MASSIVE full modification for a game, which should span about a month of work, in addition to being full-time member of 4 forums, entering exams week with too many credit hours.

And that's without fun stuff.

However, that's nothing that can stop me from being involved in this. This is big, and being a part of it is my obligation.

I will, as always, bring my dedication and ability to get things done to the table. Working with some of the top minds of Apolyton from all eras, and not just my own, would be a great and incredible experience, both for myself and Apolyton. My position lies in your hands Apolyton. I'll be waiting in case you want this old horse for one last ride.

	12-02-2003 01:29									#29
	Suffering from ads?

Is there gonna be one election for all three, or three separate Consul election threads?

You see, it has something to say:
Ok, I think I would let my vote go to vondrack,
but what about the other two Consuls I had in mind?
Do I get to vote for the other two, or not?

Our law system does not define this clearly...
And that's partially why I was a bit sceptical and didn't vote anything on the const.rat. I think we needed a bit more informative election system, and no-con system.
( CounsulA no-conning CounsulB, etc. )


That won't make this ISDG ineffective, as it does not directly interfere with the PBEM, or in-game issues.

Please, do something about it?!

	12-02-2003 02:04									#30
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I would expect every senator to give 3 votes, choosing out three of the candidates officially running for the posts of Consuls. Top three candidates receiving the highest number of votes would become Consuls.

I know this is rather difficult to do anonymously using the current Poly poll mechanisms... so either make the vote public, with everybody voting with an ordinary post in a dedicated thread, or try organizing a multiple-selection poll, hoping that nobody will select more (less?) than three candidates.