10-02-2003 13:55									#1
	Will paper money ever go obsolete? Suffering from ads?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/ptech/...t.ap/index.html

I can't see it happening in the next 50 to 100 years. Perhaps after that.

Of course there will always be money around I suspect. Money will never go away like in ST TNG. It is just human nature to have it.

The problem with paper money going away is many if not most poor people still do not have bank accounts. They deal only in cash in many cases.

As an add on to this thread. Feel free to discuss any economical issue you forsee in the future.

	10-02-2003 14:05									#2
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When Russia destroys the United States of America.

"History is on our side. We will bury you!"

	10-02-2003 14:08									#3
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Ever? I am sure it will, at some point.

	10-02-2003 14:21									#4
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Paper money is already obsolete. Nobody prints paper money. All currency in circulation is, technically, a type of cloth. This is why it does not go to pieces when you wash it.

The bills we use today will be replaced by plastic in less than 50 years. But it will not necessarily be smartcards or anything like that; it will be plastic cash that works just like cash does today. Plastic cash is cheaper to print, looks cooler, and is almost impossible to counterfeit if it is designed well.

	10-02-2003 16:09									#5
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i think it could be in a serious transition in as little as 20 years.

frankly, it wouldn't take much.

look: many universities across the country have a system where students use their student ids (the same id they use to get into the cafeteria, library, dorms, etc) as debit cards. Students put money in an account, and anytime they want anything, from a cup of coffee from the on campus shops, or to make copies on a copy machine, all you have to do is swipe your id.

In my city, many of the local restraunts also take these "bear bucks." it is supremely convenient. most students here don't even carry cash, only their id, and maybe a credit card.

This is significant in a couple different ways. first, a growing percentage of the population is already going to be comfortable with the idea. secondly, it shows what is necessary for this to be feesible. That is, convenience. Don't give someone something extra to carry around, and make it easy.

The solution? your driver's license, or state ids. If the gov't would make some kind of initiative to set up a program with a bank, or start a bank, where everyone in the state could have an account linked to their id, the transition could be seemless. most state ids and DLs already have magnetic strips on the back.

And with the way the internet is taking the (non-geek part of) the country by storm, people would have no problem managing this account online, as so many people are starting to do with their bank accounts.

	10-02-2003 16:20									#6
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australia (and mexico?) uses plastic notes. they last much longer than "paper" notes and they don't carry as much bacteria. I'm not sure if they're cheaper to make though

	10-02-2003 17:16									#7
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I seldom use money anymore... maybe because I'm unemployed now

	10-02-2003 17:26									#8
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It will probably come down to a privacy issue. A paperless (or clothless) money economy is totally feasible and could happen tommorrow. However, many people don't want ANYBODY to be able to track how they spend their money. As some have noted, many more transaction every day are being done without coins or bills. This will continue to rise... but there will be still be some form of cash. Thre real question will be is when will people stop accepting "cash"... It will get to the point where the only cash transactions will be illegal ones. At that point, maybe then we will be able to convince people to give up on cash entirely.

And then, I'm sure some kind of barter system will happen so that illegal transactions will still be able to occur "off the public record"

	10-02-2003 17:46									#9
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I give you ten bars of gold pressed latinum

	10-02-2003 19:35									#10
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Yes it will be obsolete - when all the trees are gone...

	10-02-2003 20:16									#11
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I'd imagine cashcards would come along at somepoint if not already here. They'd work like phonecards, but usable anywhere and for anything rather than just at phone booths.

There is an element of traceability, but there is no security risk like those normally associated with debit cards or credit cards. It would also remove the threat of til pilfering.

I look forward to the day I can go to the pub without returning home with ten pound of shrapnel or half-torn notes.

	10-02-2003 20:28									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch I look forward to the day I can go to the pub without returning home with ten pound of shrapnel or half-torn notes.

I look forward to the day when I do that.

	10-02-2003 20:36									#13
	Suffering from ads?

You pay with exact change?

I went out with just a £20 one time, and came home with 47 coins.

	10-02-2003 20:38									#14
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Somehow I seem to always get any money I had at 10:00 stolen from me between then and when I get home.

	10-02-2003 21:20									#15
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i can't see it happening, paper and coin money will still be useful in certain situations no matter how far into the future you go. i can't see it being bettered for going down the pub, or getting your fags and paper in the morning.

	10-02-2003 21:24									#16
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It was obsolete when it was created ^_^

--"The solution? your driver's license, or state ids."

This is an even worse idea than the various e-cash and smart card proposals that have been tried. Not only would it set up a defacto national ID, but it would tie it to personal spending habits.
Have you looked over the Patriot Act II info? Or the original? Or the various banking reporting requirements? That would be a true nightmare.

--"However, many people don't want ANYBODY to be able to track how they spend their money."

E-cash and the like can actually be done in an untraceable manner. I'll try and look up some of the implementation info later.
The real problem is that no one is willing to do it right (and if it were done right the government wouldn't stand for it, since it would be untraceable).

--" There is an element of traceability, but there is no security risk like those normally associated with debit cards or credit cards."

There certainly is a security risk. It could be reduced far enough for the system to function (same as credit cards, really; security could be vastly improved on these quite easily, but the credit companies don't consider it worth the bother compared to the losses) if anyone was willing to do it.
I still think the main problem is going to be the governments. They have not been friendly towards any such system that made the right steps towards security and privacy.

Wraith
"With money in your pocket, you are wise and you are handsome and you sing well too."
-- Yiddish Proverb

	10-02-2003 21:37									#17
	Suffering from ads?

The day I get a credit card and a cell phone will be the day that hell freezes over.

	10-02-2003 21:42									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Wraith --" There is an element of traceability, but there is no security risk like those normally associated with debit cards or credit cards." There certainly is a security risk. It could be reduced far enough for the system to function (same as credit cards, really; security could be vastly improved on these quite easily, but the credit companies don't consider it worth the bother compared to the losses) if anyone was willing to do it. I still think the main problem is going to be the governments. They have not been friendly towards any such system that made the right steps towards security and privacy.

Do you consider losing a phone card a security risk? How is losing a credited cash card a risk?

	10-02-2003 22:25									#19
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--"How is losing a credited cash card a risk?"

Losing them isn't the risk I was talking about. If it was an anonymous same-as-cash sort of thing then if you lose it it's gone, same as cash. Not a security risk in itself, although if you put moderate to large sums on the card you need to be as careful as if you carry them in cash.
The security risks are elsewhere. Mostly in people doing things like forging cards, adding cash to existing cards, things like that. This is a bigger threat, in my opinion. I've been reading up on this sort of thing, and the history is just not at all promising. Too few companies willing to pay attention to the history of the field.

Wraith
"Money can't buy friends. But you can afford a better class of enemy."
-- Lord Mancroft

	10-02-2003 22:39									#20
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quote: The security risks are elsewhere. Mostly in people doing things like forging cards, adding cash to existing cards, things like that.

Would it be a worse problem than paper money counterfeiting?

	10-02-2003 22:55									#21
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There will always be people who don't want their transactions monitored and recorded so there will always be people who will use actial money instead of e-cash.

	10-02-2003 23:13									#22
	Tired of ads?

also I forgot to mention plastic isn't as fun to stuff down a stripper's g-string.

And Ming mentioned privacy. Some men don't want their wives to know they are stuffing money in some womans' g-string. Imagine that

	11-02-2003 00:31									#23
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yes, but dissident, imagine trying to pay a stripper with a debit card.

"err, I swipe the card where? Oh. there"

	11-02-2003 00:36									#24
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--"Would it be a worse problem than paper money counterfeiting?"

In one sense, probably not. The actual cards should be harder to fake than cloth/paper money. However, this isn't the main problem.
The other sense is. The way people would really attack the cards would be to adjust the amount stored on them. If you could hack a higher dollar amount in, or could copy a high dollar amount onto a low-dollar card, etc... You'd only really need to do the apparatus once, then you're set.

It really all comes down to the implementation. No matter what's done, it'll be broken sooner or later. The only real question is how difficult it'll be to do once the basics are discovered.
Designing these things is not at all trivial, and the implementation of them is even less so. There are a lot of interesting attacks that have already been used against smart cards and the like. Differential power analysis, for instance, which measures the amount of power to card uses to help reverse engineer the encryption.

Wraith
"The NSA response was, 'Well, that was interesting, but there aren't any ciphers like that.'"
-- Gus Simmons ("The History of Subliminal Channels")

	11-02-2003 01:35									#25
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I'm sure someone has said this already. Paper money is too convinient to be entirely replaced.

	11-02-2003 01:44									#26
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I hope it doesn't. Even though I rarely use cash, it's still pretty cool. Nothing beats having a nice wad in a silver money clip

Seriously, they would have to do something about the speed of access for electronic money. When you go to a bar (or any other really busy (as in number of transactions) place), compare how long it takes to pay with debit to cash. Unless every place is either permanently connected to a network, or some other system becomes prominent (ie: cash cards and readers), then the speed with which money can be accessed is too slow.

Finally, consider how far away we are from these fast-transaction alternatives in North America and Europe (or parts of Asia) and think about how much further developing countries are.

	11-02-2003 02:21									#27
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We don't have paper money here anyway. All our money is plastic which doesn't rip and has cool see-thru 'holes' in it .

The holes make it more difficult to fake.

	11-02-2003 02:24									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Kaak ... DLs already have magnetic strips on the back.

. The things you read between the lines when skim-scroll reading ... must make life a lot easier for the mods .