10-02-2003 20:13									#1
	Proposed for Ratification: Tech Exchange Agreement Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Are we willing to ratify the following agreement?

(1) Gathering Storm and Vox Controli hereby formally agree to give each other all technologies discovered, through whatever means, for the duration of this agreement.

(2) This agreement may be cancelled by either team under the following conditions. (a) The team wishing to cancel the agreement must provide a minimum of ten turns' notice. (b) Both sides, and especially the side initiating cancellation, are required to act in good faith to ensure that the treaty will be ended (or transitioned to some other arrangement) in a way that is equitable to both. Both agree not to manipulate the timing of tech discovery, tech trades with other parties, the ending of the deal itself, or any other factor in such a way as to obtain an unfair advantage over the other.

	10-02-2003 20:17									#2
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Please hurry, by the way. Ideally, it would be good to have a consensus by the time Sir Ralph plays the turn.

	10-02-2003 20:31									#3
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This will help us focus on *when* Vox dies.

	10-02-2003 20:36									#4
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Ok with me

	10-02-2003 20:59									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

I'm hesitating.... but can't find what is bothering me right now. So, I'll vote to get this done quicker rather then later...

DeepO

	10-02-2003 21:02									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

One problem: we need to get this ratified from Vox's side before accepting the deal, so I still vote to deny the gift, and send the proposal accompagnied with a message in which we ask to offer it to us again if they agree.

Of course, I know it won't change anything practically, but principle is big here: we have to give some message of wanting to do this correctly, and in a controlled manner.

DeepO

	10-02-2003 21:16									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

I don't mind the idea of holding things up a turn as long as we do so in such a way that the message is "We just want to make sure there are no misunderstandings." My big concern earlier was about rejecting the offer and leaving Vox hanging.

Nathan

	10-02-2003 21:20									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

to this deal.

I was either asleep or at school when most of the action took place. I'm sorry I've missed all of this.

	10-02-2003 21:22									#9
	Put an end to popups!

Agree in full, Nathan. We need to get this ratified on our side, and send that to Vox before we end our turn. But as I don't see an option to accept this deal this turn, we might as well cancel it, and continue with the turn.

I was thinking on one other urgent matter: Vox asked us what they need to research next. We should answer them there too... maybe asking them to rack in gold for the moment, until we can give them writing.

DeepO

	10-02-2003 21:25									#10
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What happens, if a tech trade goes along with a "no whore agreement"? We have such in our PBEM games, they mean, that only who researched a tech or finds it in a hut is allowed to trade it... Could get problematic in the context of this treaty.

	10-02-2003 21:28									#11
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A (hesitant) yes from me too.

Edit: I voted "yes, but with small changes...", while I just meant to vote "yes" (first option)

	10-02-2003 21:36									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph What happens, if a tech trade goes along with a "no whore agreement"? We have such in our PBEM games, they mean, that only who researched a tech or finds it in a hut is allowed to trade it... Could get problematic in the context of this treaty.

Only the team that discovers it, is allowed to trade for it?!
(this could act as an incentive to go research as fast as possible too)

	10-02-2003 21:39									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph What happens, if a tech trade goes along with a "no whore agreement"? We have such in our PBEM games, they mean, that only who researched a tech or finds it in a hut is allowed to trade it... Could get problematic in the context of this treaty.

We do need to figure out how to handle that sort of thing, but I don't think there's time to do it justice right now. As things stand now, both teams would have to reserve the right to sell/trade the tech to at least one other team (not necessarily giving away who that one is).

Nathan

	10-02-2003 22:13									#14
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My earlier proposal in the 'Turn' thread was simply to delay the trade for a turn, to make sure Vox explicity knows what agreements there are between us (as Nathan said above). I never had any intention of "leaving them hanging". Apparently making things absurdly clear (then clarifying one more time for good measure) is necessary with Vox.

The proposed ratification sounds fine.


Dominae

	10-02-2003 23:25									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

no whore agreement: we've been talking about it, but right now it doesn't matter. RPG will have traded writing to everyone on the continent before Vox gets it from us, and we won't be able to trade their techs away. I seriously doubt that this game is going to be a no-whore game, or we should have everyone to agree to it. Plus, not doing it leaves us possibilities to exploit it later on, when we might not want to sign NDAs on techs we get...

Dominae: that's what is said there, so no problem. Delaying it is just so both of our teams can be sure of what is proposed here...

Other things: we need to get the codex out to Vox, and to other teams we're going to start trading with, so maybe that's becoming more of a priority... could everybody check if he sees necessary changes? Otherwise we could go ahead with it. It will make diplo life with Vox a bit more predictable. I hope.

I strongly oppose the fact that Vox is forwarding diplo messages from other teams, Nathan, please tell them again we consider our diplomatic contacts secret, and not to be forwarded to other teams. If Vox gives us the other communication, fine, as long as they don't give ur communications to someone else.

If GoW wants 20 gold for contact with RPG, maybe we can split the difference with Vox, and propose to give them 10 gold if they later would give us contact with RPG. It's strange to see that Vox is either our best friend, or ignorant of the damage an isolation could do to us. They certainly are trying everything to keep us happy, so I think we should keep that in mind too. Give the dog a bone now and then, and he will listen to you much more eagerly

DeepO

	14-02-2003 07:36									#16
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I voted no because this treaty binds us in agreement with a civ where we can get screwed. First of all, this will establish parity between us. This means that whatever leg up we get, we will give it away for a handful of gold (on the otherhand, if they get a leg up, they will give it away, again for a handful of gold) On top of that, if we build the colossus, the gold will be worth less to us in real terms because we will already be reaping in a lot of it.

Second of all, this reduces the decision making for the other team. If we assume that there is another civ on the western border of Vox, then researching is no longer an either/or option. They dont need to worry about either choosing a war type tech or a civil type tech.