11-02-2003 23:50									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen Caligastia: that is the first point someone has made in this discussion(talking about it on 2 forums besides apolyton) which made my brain go "Oooh, good point!"-but why do you think that?

It's a part of Urantia Book cosmology:

http://www.urantia.org/papers/toc.html

quote: Edit: Upon further though, if your basing that on events in the physical universe, that is untrue, because the universe WILL eventually end........be it one of the theories about a mind boggling large blackhole, OR just wait till the halflife expires on all protons and they fade into backround radiation....

How can you talk about these man made theories as if they are absolute truth? Remember, there is very little we humans know for sure about the nature of the universe. BTW the universe encompasses far more than just physical reality.

	11-02-2003 23:56									#32
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But too much of all those good things? Think of how many things make you feel good, in addition to those things which are "good."

Yes, too much cake and ice cream and wild partying, but I doubt you can have too much love, or too intimate a relationship with someone.

	12-02-2003 04:12									#33
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Vesayan,

Not to physicists. Time is considered a solid chunk, looking from outside that we pass through. Rather than time flowing, it is we who flow through time.

Good answer Agathon as to the material realities of heaven. Many Christians accept platonic descriptions of heaven so long as they also allow for a bodily resurrection.

quote: That's why people who spend their lives screwing and drinking are scuppered when they die. It is not as if they go to hell, they in fact go to Platonic heaven - it is just that there is no way for them to satisfy any of their desires there.

	12-02-2003 04:18									#34
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quote: "Kramerman's wager: I don't know if there is an afterlife, but in case there isn't, I'm going to live in a box hooked up to an IV fluid dispensar so that I live the longest life I possibly can."

Thats sorta kinda my philosophy ...

As i see it, we got one life to live, so live it up to the fullest extent. To some, this may be qunatity of life, to others, quality, and to folks like myself it is a balance between the two.

So, incase there is no afterlife, enjoy your life!

Kman

	12-02-2003 04:44									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger That's like saying, "I have no idea what I am talking about but I still want to speak like I do."

No, that's what they say. At least according to the picture of Platonism reconstructed from Plato's Phaedo, Republic, Symposium, and Meno; as well as the work of later Platonists like Plotinus.

So stick that in your pipe and smoke it.


If you want the very latest scholarly tome on this it is called "Knowing Persons" by L. P. Gerson, and is a study on Plato's theory of the self (will be published in April).

	12-02-2003 08:33									#36
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I have always considered Plato a wacko. YMMV.

	12-02-2003 08:34									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia You don't understand. New things to experience are being created at a far faster rate than you can experience them. You will never have experienced all there is to experience in the universes because it is constantly changing.

What is the mechanism of this creation? Who is to say it will not reach a plateau and then decline?

	12-02-2003 10:51									#38
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its hard to imagine there being an infinte amount of new experiences, as that is what would be necessary for one to never get bored for eternity. even a google^google is insignificant in the realm of infinitesimals. but perhaps just my puny human mind cannot comprehend such ideas...

Kman

	12-02-2003 21:11									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi I think in Pascal's day, more people cared about religious/philosophical ideas. I don't think many people are interested in philosophy right now. That could make it harder for people to become well known now.

Exactly, you should focus on which Pokemon is the best instead.

	12-02-2003 21:21									#40
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"Read Neitzsche? (I think it was him). He espoused the view of two options. Life/ the universe exists forever or life/ the universe ends. If the former we are eternally tormented as time repeats itself, if the latter then living is pointless."

What a cheerful guy! I seriously think, though, that these philosophers specifically aimed to deflate the spirits of those around them. Take that tasteful Sartre quote: "Hell is other people". Oh, is it? Maybe it is for you, you friendless, antisocial, goon of a thick glasses, cross-eyed frenchman, but for people who are able to deal with the inconsistencies of life, and even revel in them, heaven is other people. It is for me. If I have to spend heaven alone, I'd kill myself. Oh, wait...

"The problem with afterlife arguments is it assumes the afterlife is like the real world, except without the nasty stuff (or good stuff if you're in hell). I doubt that very much."

	12-02-2003 21:30									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch Read Neitzsche? (I think it was him). He espoused the view of two options. Life/ the universe exists forever or life/ the universe ends. If the former we are eternally tormented as time repeats itself, if the latter then living is pointless.

Probably not, Neitzche was an existentialist. Anyway, he advocated living your life to the fullest then go out with a bang.

	12-02-2003 21:48									#42
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quote: What a cheerful guy! I seriously think, though, that these philosophers specifically aimed to deflate the spirits of those around them.

Remember the famous saying: 'ignorance is bliss'. The more you know, the more cynical you become, IMO, and that becomes depressing after a while.

	12-02-2003 23:29									#43
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That's funny - the more I know, the more I realize how ignorant I am.

	12-02-2003 23:43									#44
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 That's funny - the more I know, the more I realize how ignorant I am.

This is the beginning of wisdom.

	12-02-2003 23:46									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Probably not, Neitzche was an existentialist. Anyway, he advocated living your life to the fullest then go out with a bang.

Didn't he come up with the philosophical idea that anything that can happen has happened and will happen again. He had some story about the eternal recurrence of Zaroastra's journey, or something like that, to explain it.

My knowledge of the subject stems solely from reading about Poincarre recurrence, rather than reading any books on Nietzsche philosophy.

	13-02-2003 01:00									#46
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"Didn't he come up with the philosophical idea that anything that can happen has happened and will happen again."

I really like that idea. Gives me a sense of hope, and makes me feel part of the commonwealth of mankind.

	13-02-2003 01:24									#47
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hmm... this is kind of depressing, but i think it could be argued that no one has ever had a truly original idea.

	13-02-2003 01:49									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Kaak hmm... this is kind of depressing, but i think it could be argued that no one has ever had a truly original idea.

What about Ung? He was the first to contemplate peeing while standing up.

	13-02-2003 02:18									#49
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi What about Ung? He was the first to contemplate peeing while standing up.

i'll believe it when i see it

	13-02-2003 02:20									#50
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I thought that was Bung!

	13-02-2003 02:33									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch Didn't he come up with the philosophical idea that anything that can happen has happened and will happen again. He had some story about the eternal recurrence of Zaroastra's journey, or something like that, to explain it.

He did, but, at root, eternal recurrence is really a very old idea (not with quite the spin Nietzsche puts on it).

Empdocles thought that the world alternated between elements being brought together and torn apart.

In Plato's Statesman there is a myth where the world is like a giant spring which God winds up and lets go, only for it to spring back on itself when it reaches the extremity of its extension.

The Stoics (Zeno, Chrysippus, etc.) believed that the universe is periodically destroyed by fire and reborn, phoenix like, from the ashes. Since God plans the course of history from rebirth to conflagration for the best it seems that each cycle will be identical. There is some dispute over whether this means that we will be reborn or whether mere copies of us will be reborn.

As for Plato, I don't think he's that bad. After all the Theaetetus consists, IMHO, of a complete refutation of any non-naturalist or non-Platonist foundationalist epistemology. (Phew!)

In any case, all you have to do to accept Platonism is the thesis that there can be two different things which are really the same in kind. From that the rest follows.

	13-02-2003 03:28									#52
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"He did, but, at root, eternal recurrence is really a very old idea (not with quite the spin Nietzsche puts on it). "
Not only that, but it's a common idea as well. The maya beleived it too. Of course, they used it as an excuse to make war - I use it as an excuse to make sweet, sweet love.

	13-02-2003 10:41									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch Didn't he come up with the philosophical idea that anything that can happen has happened and will happen again. He had some story about the eternal recurrence of Zaroastra's journey, or something like that, to explain it.

Do you mean Zarathustra, as in Neitzsche's book Thus Spoke Zarathustra?

	13-02-2003 10:45									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon In any case, all you have to do to accept Platonism is the thesis that there can be two different things which are really the same in kind. From that the rest follows.

You mean Dualism, as set out in "The fire in the Cave?"