11-02-2003 05:43									#1
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Perhaps it is time we decided on research goals a ways in advance. Relations with Vox are effected, not to mention the likelihood of futher contacts occuring soon.

What should be our next research goal? Republic? Map Making? Monarchy? Which would be secondary goals? Can we rank them?

If we can organise this area of the game, we can make better decisions, quicker.

	11-02-2003 05:44									#2
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I think it is likely that Literature and Map Making will quickly become goals 1 and 1A. What about the rest? Which do we want more? Map Making or Literature?

	11-02-2003 06:37									#3
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I don't see Map Making as a priority anymore now that it looks like contacts with everyone (or at least everyone but Lego) can be obtained through Vox.

My current thinking (as also expressed in part in the Turn 51 thread) is to maybe have Vox research Code of Laws while we research Literature and then Philosophy, unless we can line up a trade of Code of Laws for Literature or vice versa, in which case we could research one and trade for the other while Vox works on Philosophy. That would set us up for a beeline to Republic, which is useful not just for the extra gold it would bring but also for higher production due to lower corruption.

Nathan

	11-02-2003 14:00									#4
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I agree that Republic is a primary target given our situation.

However, you don't think that GrLH is a valuable target given that Lego way well grab GrLib?

There's probably islands out there. Possibly a major one.

	11-02-2003 15:13									#5
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Republic is a first priority IMO, after that MM to as NYE says, see if there is some uninhabitat islands to be explored/settled.

	11-02-2003 15:14									#6
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I agree that Republic is a primary target given our situation. However, you don't think that GrLH is a valuable target given that Lego way well grab GrLib? There's probably islands out there. Possibly a major one.

If we can't trade for Map Making, we can get Vox to research it while we're working on Republic. They'll need harbors pretty desperately once they finish REXing, since coast and sea tiles make up such a large percentage of their eventual empire, so pointing them in the right direction shouldn't be too difficult.

	11-02-2003 17:19									#7
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I think we'll need MM pretty quickly, and would be inclined to get it before republic. But true, if Vox would be willing to get it, that makes the most sense.

The GLh is also on my list, but if the legos are far from anyone else, I doubt we'll be able to get it. But yes, there is too much open space on this map: to the North of Lego is enough space to settle 3 civs. We've got the growth potential to go for a bit more peacefull expansion, so I wold definately want to go for that if possible.

DeepO

	11-02-2003 17:25									#8
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The problem with expanding onto islands is that any you need the Great Lighthouse to get to are usually far enough away to have too high a corruption to really be worth anything. A palace jump would be theoretically possible, but only viable if we found an island large enough to make a viable core in its own right. Further, highly corrupt island posessions aren't exactly easy to defend against any serious attack, and their benefit to score is a mixed blessing since a high score run up from almost useless islands might make us look like more of a threat to others.

Edit: of course the possibility of a luxury on an uninhabited island gives the Great Lighthouse some chance of being worth quite a bit more.

	11-02-2003 17:31									#9
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Luxuries are enough reasons to do it, as is creating possible beach heads for later. Sure, corruption could become a problem, but maybe we find land down there that is bigger then what we have now, in which case I would be happy to palace jump to there (using a leader or capital starving). I still consider the GL the best replacement of the GL

DeepO

	11-02-2003 20:38									#10
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Republic beeline with cooperation from Vox. Given the apparent disparity in research rates (which should get bigger now with our new city on the gold hill), Nathan's suggestion seems to make the most sense (we research Lit/Philo, Vox researches CoL). Then we research Republic, and send Vox back to research something we're missing... MapMaking?

-Arrian

	11-02-2003 21:34									#11
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DeepO, could you please ask RolePlay whether they are researching either Code of Laws or Literature and, if so, whether they would be willing to arrange a trade in advance with us for whichever of those they are not researching? If we could get one of those from another team, we could research the other while Vox goes for Philosophy, and that would set us up to start on Republic a bit sooner. And I'm inclined to view RolePlay as a seemingly unlikely-to-be-hostile place to start looking for such a deal. (Unless someone has an objection to the idea...)

Nathan

	11-02-2003 23:20									#12
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I'll get some info on the RPGers... also on how the position on the main continent now really is.
I'm very hesitant to mention a possible tech deal with Vox with them, it would be in our best interest if we and Vox don't seem too close. For the moment, I'll simply leave it out, we can always tell them later...

DeepO

	11-02-2003 23:36									#13
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My "If we could get..." part was intended as explanation for our team, not as stuff you should pass on to RP. I agree with not disclosing our relationship with Vox any more than might become truly necessary.

Any objection if I go ahead and tell Vox we'd like them to hold off research until we get them Writing so they can help us go after Republic?

Nathan

	11-02-2003 23:42									#14
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Nathan, no problem. Please mention to Vox that it would be best if our close relation doesn't leak into the rest of the world, they will get the best deals if they are keeping us small...

Message to Godking is on it's way... will soon be posted in the log.

DeepO

	12-02-2003 00:10									#15
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Nathan- you think Vox will really halt their research? i don't think so, but, they did mention they are looking into new options for research, so telling them we have devised a plan an we need their cooperation seems like a good idea.

	12-02-2003 00:56									#16
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Proposed message to Vox:

quote: Greetings BetaHound, Jon, and People of Vox Controli, My apologies for not getting back in touch about question of what directions our research should take more quickly. The main reason plotting a research course is proving to be complicated is that we are not quite sure how trades with other civs can fit into the picture. We definitely want to get Republic quickly, but we also want Literature so libraries can help speed our research along the way. That leads to two possibilities, if you are interested in cooperating. Option 1: If we can find another civ that would be interested, we could research either Literature or Code of Laws and trade it for the other while you research Philosophy. That would provide both our civs with the accelerated research that comes from libraries without undercutting our beeline for Republic. Option 2: If we can't find a civ interested in lining up a trade of Literature for Code of Laws in advance, we could research Literature and then Philosophy while you research Code of Laws. That would slow down the start of research into Republic a little, but the hope would be that libraries would buy back the lost time along the way and put our two civilizations in a stronger research position from then on. Unfortunately, either of these plans would require a delay in your starting your next line of research. But as libraries become operational, the gold accumulated while waiting will be needed for their upkeep, so the loss of research potential is merely short-term, not long-term. We hope that this proposal (whichever option ends up proving to be practical) meets with your approval. In the meantime, we've started making discrete inquiries regarding the possibility of the Code of Laws for Literature swap. We are, of course, keeping your role in our plans quiet, since we agree that it's best for the rest of the world not to know any more about our partnership than they have to. Sincerely, The People of Gathering Storm Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

	12-02-2003 01:14									#17
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Looks good, hope Vox will understand the benefits of halting their research, or atleast not commit themselves to some deal offered by someone else. Maybe an quick summary on the benefits of Republic and library will help them make their mind?

	12-02-2003 01:25									#18
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Looks good indeed, but I hope that they will get the hint of the last paragraph. It's obvious to me, but somehow I don't think they are looking through our proposals word for word.

DeepO

	12-02-2003 01:49									#19
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Looks good indeed, but I hope that they will get the hint of the last paragraph. It's obvious to me, but somehow I don't think they are looking through our proposals word for word.

If you go back and read Vox's messages, I think you'll see that they already recognize the advantages of letting the rest of the world assume things are tense between us rather than revealing our true relationship. That being the case, I didn't want to sound like I'm telling them something they already know.

	12-02-2003 01:56									#20
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Oh, but I agree, you can't pressure them much harder then this... but still, them being very liberal with what kind of diplo information they leak to us got me a bit scared. We can't deny it once anyone asks directly, that's another implication of playing honorable, so let's hope they're carefull in not mentioning it too hard.

DeepO

	12-02-2003 05:37									#21
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quote: We can't deny it once anyone asks directly, that's another implication of playing honorable, so let's hope they're carefull in not mentioning it too hard.

We can deny anything about ourselves we darn well please. Honourable does not mean stupid. People may ask us all sorts of things, we are under no obligation to give truthful answers about sensitive information.

but about other things...

I think it is clear from RPGs note that we should not rely on Vox for anything in our direct path. There is always the very real chance that they will deceive us and not research their assigned tech, instead planning on trading for it. If they cannot trade... we could find ourselves needlessly delayed and our plans upset.

Would it not be better to set them to MM and ask them to see if they can find a source for Philosophy? That points them in the direction we want them to go so that they can comfortably exercise their deceptive nature to our advantage. ie, trade for tech. If, by the time we complete Code of Laws they do not provide Philosophy, then we commence researching it without delay.

I think that would eliminate the chance that uncertainty over Vox and exactly what they are doing could delay our reaching Republic.

	12-02-2003 07:11									#22
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It was Lux, not Vox, that pulled that stunt of counting on trading instead of researching. I suppose it's theoretically possible that Vox could try such a thing, but no more so than it would be with anyone else.

Also consider that Lux operates on a market economy basis, one deal at a time. In contrast, Vox seems inclined to hitch themselves to us for the long haul if we'll let them. It's a bit hard for me to imagine Vox pulling a stunt that would jepopardize that position. (Edit: Unless become afraid we're about to dump them anyhow.)

Also, there is essentially no chance that Vox's research would be disrupted by fighting by the time they get Philosophy. From what RP says, other civs are more likely to be distracted by preparations for possible war, or perhaps even by actual fighting.

So I don't think having Vox handle the Philosophy part poses a particularly higher risk than having someone else do it.

Nathan

	12-02-2003 08:28									#23
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Didn't they trade for IW when they were supposed to be researching it?

	12-02-2003 19:17									#24
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My understanding is that a trade possibility came up while they were researching it so they went ahead and traded instead. Had the trade opportunity not come up, they would still have gotten Iron Working, just not quite as quickly.

Nathan

	12-02-2003 20:20									#25
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Just one remark, RPG is not totally honest either, if I understand everything correctly. Didn't Vox say that they could acquire Mysticism from RPG? they haven't researched that themselves, they either got it from ND or GoW, or from a hut. So they can whine about Lux selling them a tech they haven't researched (thereby limiting RPGs trade options), but they are doing the same to Vox.

Also, Togas seemed to imply this NDA, but I hadn't heard anything from GK regarding this. Maybe this comes from not having negotiated tech deals with RPG before, maybe it was simply a personal issue of Togas. No matter what, we need to detail this in each tech deal from now on, and also better ask what Vox's ideas are when it comes to NDAs on techs. I think for the moment they simply consider everything you got yours, no matter how you got it.

DeepO

	12-02-2003 20:45									#26
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As I understand it, what Lux did that has RP unhappy was to arrange deals in advance as if they were researching themselves and then count on trades to give them what they promised. As a result, if the trades on the other side didn't work out, Lux couldn't deliver on its promises. That made Lux's promises of future trades significantly less reliable than they would have been if Lux did their own research. And it was also seriously dishonest for Lux to portray themselves as doing the research when they were apparently stockpiling gold while waiting for trades to go through.

Nathan

	12-02-2003 21:02									#27
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Oh, Lux certainly lost a lot of appeal as a long term trader from me too, after last message. And yes, I think you're right in your interpretation, although I first read it as if their deal went through, and they were able to give RPG what they wanted.

It's very interesting that GoW was the one blowing the Lux-Vox connection, obviously spilling the beans to other teams as well. Of course, it is opportunistic, but at least GoW didn't think it to be the honorable thing. If I was in such a situation, you'd be a big boy if you manage to pass me for contacts, I would fortify some spears there, and isloate away. I wouldn't think of it as dishonorable either, but apparently both GoW as RPG were upset by this.

The problem with trying to be devious is that it only works as long as nobody finds out, I think Lux is going to get it tough in this game if RPG is able to spread some more 'info' on how they dealt. But I would like it: let it come, everything they want to tell us is good for us.

DeepO

	13-02-2003 01:57									#28
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After NYE's objections, I never did get my message to Vox sent off. I'm revising it in light of RP's message.

quote: Greetings BetaHound, Jon, and People of Vox Controli, My apologies for not getting back in touch about question of what directions our research should take more quickly. The main reason plotting a research course is proving to be complicated is the question of how trades with other civs will fit into the picture. We definitely want to get Republic quickly, but we also want Literature so libraries can help speed our research along the way. After some discussion with RolePlay, it looks like there's a good possibility of a trade to them for Literature if we get Code of Laws, so it seems worthwhile to proceed with our original plan (assuming you're willing). Specifically, if you would research Philosophy while we research Code of Laws, that would set things up for us to then go full speed for Republic (freeing us both from the pain of despotism as quickly as possible). We regret the inconvenience that holding up your research until we can provide Writing will cause, but assuming the Literature deal goes through (RP won't give a firm commitment in advance), the gold surplus you build up along the way could be spent fairly quickly on library maintenance. And the benefits of Republic should be well worth the inconvenience. By the way, was your not offering the two techs again this turn deliberate, or did you not realize you would need to make the offer again to keep it open? We hope our wanting to formalize the trading partnership atreement is not causing you too much concern. Sincerely, The People of Gathering Storm Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

	13-02-2003 02:06									#29
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Damn this exams period, seems like i missed a critical 36 period of intense diplomatic occurrences. What's the deal with the GoW spilling the beans over Vox-Lux dealings, and how does RPG has to do with it?

As for the research- as i understand we're planning on spliting the Republic project between Vox and us, as well as one more team (RPG, probably), so, we should propose such an arrangement to civ X and to Vox (after the approve of the current offer) and finalize it.

Also- getting contacts will be neccesary- do we know Lux is buying ours from Vox, or that Vox is willing to trade for it?

	13-02-2003 02:21									#30
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All we really want from RP is to trade Code of Laws for Literature. I'd rather not let them in on the whole thing, although if they can come up with techs of comparable total value to Republic, a trade would be worth considering. With Vox, assuming they don't throw the idea out the window in light of our not being willing to make the deal permanent, we have a "give each other all techs discovered" agreement, and I don't think we could legitimately back out of it without giving them Republic after using them to help get the prerequisites.

Unless we've poisoned things since, Vox is willing to go ahead and set up the contacts once they get Writing, but they'd like to try to get what they can out of other teams in return. I'm inclined to let them try since we could reap some of the benefits either in tech or in speeding up Vox's ability to contribute research, as long as it doesn't cause problems for us. (The big thing is that if anyone discovers Code of Laws before we do, having contact with them would be useful to speed up our research.)

Nathan