11-02-2003 15:46									#1
	What is the best solution for this particular UU? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Mongols were my favorite Civ in Civ 2. I was flabergasted in thier absense from Civ 3's initial release. I was pleased they were added in the PTW expansion.

Then I was underwhelmed by what seems a very medoicre UU and Civ. Now I could be wrong but looking for opinions.

What is the best solution?

1.Leave the keshik as is, 2 movement, mountains as grassland. It is perfectly balanced. The devs know best.

2.Change the Keshik to treats both mountains and hills as grassland.

3.Change the Keshik to treats both mountains and hills as grassland. Also increase movement rate to 3.

Opinions? I really don't like to cheat by editing units to make them overpowered..but this unit leaves me scratching my head. Does it need to be changed? Or is that unbalancing?

	11-02-2003 16:20									#2
	Remove this text

I went for option 3. The AI doesn't overrun the map with Keshiks so it doesn't unbalance the game from that point.

I don't find it too strong but that may be a reflection of my playing style (or that I'm not very good).

It is worth noting that if you play with culturally linked start on then the Mongols can find themselves next to three other civs with Knight based UU's so it can be a very competitive time in a game. The present weak UU leaves the Mongols at a disadvantage IMHO at this point.

A move of three isn't too strong when up against Chinese Riders and Japanese Samurai. I allow War Elephants to treat forest and jungle as clear and it all seems to work well.

	11-02-2003 16:56									#3
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I'd say 2). That's what I use in my mod.

	12-02-2003 03:44									#4
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How many shields do they cost compared to chinese riders? I say choice #2 and make them a little cheaper than they are (safety in numbers

	12-02-2003 05:18									#5
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warpstorm did you decrease the cost at all?

	12-02-2003 10:51									#6
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Were the Mongols fast riders? Or is the ability to remain a week in the saddle sufficient for the third move point? I would probably do #2 or #3 -- #3 most likely.

	12-02-2003 10:52									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

It does seem rather silly that they could ignore mountains, but not hills.

	12-02-2003 11:00									#8
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Well I can't get the editor to work..so I am not doing anything at the moment.

	12-02-2003 15:10									#9
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Were the Mongols fast riders? Or is the ability to remain a week in the saddle sufficient for the third move point? I would probably do #2 or #3 -- #3 most likely.

A contemporary chronicler described Mongol soldiers as being able to ride for ten days, sleeping in the saddle and subsisting on the blood and milk of their horses.

If that doesn't warrant a move of 3, what does?

	12-02-2003 15:42									#10
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Well, there you go, then!

	12-02-2003 22:26									#11
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While it seems cool to have 3 moves, only 60 shields build cost, hills, mountains as grasslands, then on top of that not even needing iron, wow. That would make it at least 3x-4x more powerful than the devs intended it to be..major boost.

Were the devs really that far offbase? Was this even playtested? Why didn't they go with those stats in the first place? There has to be a reason...they can't be that ignorant. I'm sure it was playtested?

If the unit really should be as strong as you suggest..then why did the devs apparantly strongly defend this choice and refuse to upgrade it at all via a patch? Anyone here any statments from them on this?

Any more opinions on this unit? Any vet Civ 3 players out there? Give me your opinions on this unit.

	13-02-2003 04:39									#12
	Remove this text

Option 2) ONLY.
That what I use in my MOD.

P.S.
Movment 3 is stepping on toes of Rider or Ansar Warrior


P.P.S.
By the way Keshik has some other benefits too.
1) Cheper (although that couterbalanced with lower defense)
2) Has ZOC (yes, only knight unit with ZOC)
3) they only need Horses (minor, but still a benefit)