12-02-2003 00:16									#1
	Turn 52, 1710 BC Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

To be edited by the leaders of the Scholia.

Status:
- Researching Writing at 100%, ready in 2 turns.
- 72 gold cash, -2 per turn.

Urgent questions:
- none

Military:
- ... ?

Economy:
- Hurricane finishes spearman, starts palace (prebuild for whatever we end up deciding on).
- Worker #2 finishes chop, starts road. (I want to road the tile while we're here, but we may want to focus our irrigation efforts on river tiles that bring in more gold for the moment.)
- Worker #3 starts mine.
- Bolderberg laborer shifts to the roaded plains tile we're about to finish irrigating. (Since we're wasting a shield now, we should get the same production either way.)
- Cyclone shifts its non-wheat laborer to the game forest (which should net it an extra shield).

Diplomacy:
- discussion whether we continue the GL or not, and how we involve Vox in it
- awaiting response from Vox about the research partnership

Last edited by nbarclay on 12-02-2003 at 21:19

	12-02-2003 00:48									#2
	Re: Turn 52, 1710 BC Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph ...and how we involve Vox in it

Haven't we already agreed to Nathan's plan?
Was there a poll about this? I honestly don't remember, the last week has been eventful in RL.

Btw, a really good job with the latest message to RP, DeepO.

	12-02-2003 01:09									#3
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quote: Btw, a really good job with the latest message to RP, DeepO

I have to agree with Shiber- i was almost tempted to comment on that excellent message- flattering but not snirveling, yet presents us in the light of a team that takes itself and its play seriously, as well as its neighbors- truly a work of a talented Diplomat.
(Hmm..., i wish i had some medals or decoration for those officials who excel- like those little stars Mc'Donalds workers wear )

I suppose that if they agree for the "trade all techs deal" and its still in place (if and) when have the GL- than they don't have any reason to pay us - don't they? and if we take that deal from them and then we alter it so that they pay- they will probably refuse. Its harder to give up something you already have and pay more, than it is to just pay more after a while. On the slaves issue- i don't see a way to encourage Vox to give then to us besides improving our chances of getting the GL, and them benefiting from it as wll (according to the "trade all techs" deal), but i honestly don't think we want to commit ourselves for so long, not now at least, what we actually will do if we decide to have them join a GL project.

In hort- if we are commiting ourselves to a trade all techs deal, and actually honoring it, while also having them join workers for the GL- it means we are allies up until the early middle ages- are we going to commit ourselves to this now?

Well, if we're discussing it- than i say no. (either we have an agreement on them buying all the techs- an obvious profit for us, or that we go for a limited "trade all techs", but not both).

	12-02-2003 01:18									#4
	Put an end to popups!

Thanks guys ... I wish I could say it was well thought, but actually it was just inspiration of the moment. Oh, but please, no McDonalds stars for me

Zeit, those are my concerns as well with the tech deal, however we needed something fast, and we can back out of it if we want. It was ratified by our team, I think, not entirely sure if Nathan already sent it to Vox. I propose to keep this arrangement as long as we haven't decided what we do later on, right now this seems to be possible only after we heard from all other possible partners.

I like the idea of having RPG for a partner, because they appear to be strong, and reliable. If I interpreted their messages well, they were founded on a river with cows in reach. Pretty sure start location to at least keep up in the ancient age, no matter what happens.

DeepO

	12-02-2003 03:12									#5
	Re: Re: Turn 52, 1710 BC Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Shiber Haven't we already agreed to Nathan's plan? Was there a poll about this?

I'm not talking about involving Vox in tech deals, but about the discussion if we build the GL at all and in what amount Vox has to help us with workers and/or gold.

	12-02-2003 05:41									#6
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Sir Ralph and or Nathan,

Could one of you check the Mil Advisor and let us know his report on our strength relative to Vox, please?

	12-02-2003 06:09									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I check it every 2-3 turns, and it has always been average.

	12-02-2003 19:32									#8
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Whether this changes or not after we complete the veteran spearman will tell us whether Vox is investing a lot in its military.
Btw, Sir Ralph, I suppose that you're already doing this once in a while, but just in case, could you open a diplo screen with Vox and browse through the advisor's messages? Messages such as 'Vox Controli has the spearman / swordsman / is unimpressed by our culture' could reveal a lot to us.

	12-02-2003 20:35									#9
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Well, if all goes well, we'll have contact with a couple of other teams next turn, so 2 requests:

- first of all, please send screenshots of all F11-screens now, and next turn (or every turn new contacts arrive). The reason is that we need to be able to separate them, for which we need different screens. I want to have a go at them, but for the moment I'm terribly busy, and I can't promise I'll have time before the weekend. (and the weekend itself could still go to other activities.)

- second, and I know this asks a lot of the players, please check every turn with all contacts whether they have acquired a tech we also have, and check in F6 which techs get down in cost. This to assess how techs are being traded amongst civs.

Further, a question: with writing come embassies, are we going to try to build them in other capitals, or rather wait until someone else builds it in EotS? I noticed that when another nation builds an embassy, you automatically see its location as well, so the only difference is to see inside the city for one turn. I'm not sure that is worth the cost.

DeepO

	12-02-2003 20:48									#10
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quote: I noticed that when another nation builds an embassy, you automatically see its location as well

Interesting...
That's the last time I establish an embassy....

	12-02-2003 21:06									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

Yep, In the EuroPBEM game, I now have a fine view on your capital, Alva. I thought first I got a bugged save, but after the initial fear I opened up the espionage screen, and saw I had an embassy in your capital too.

Of course, you only see the exact location and surrounding improvements, and not the inside of the city, or present troops / workers. It's like getting a territory map of those 22 tiles only.

BTW, where is the Euro PBEM game now? is it with you or with Nathan?
DeepO

	12-02-2003 21:47									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

If the other party will be interested in an embassy as well, perhaps we can share the establishment cost.

	12-02-2003 22:30									#13
	Re: Re: Re: Turn 52, 1710 BC Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I'm not talking about involving Vox in tech deals, but about the discussion if we build the GL at all and in what amount Vox has to help us with workers and/or gold.

That's just what I meant. Nathan drew up a plan to give them credits, which can be redeemed for techs or discounts or something, for every worker they donate to our cause, and if my memory serves me right, there was pretty much a concensus around that plan.
IMHO we should offer this plan, or something else, but something, to Vox, if we still want a wonder.

	12-02-2003 22:55									#14
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Turn 52, 1710 BC Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Shiber That's just what I meant. Nathan drew up a plan to give them credits, which can be redeemed for techs or discounts or something, for every worker they donate to our cause, and if my memory serves me right, there was pretty much a concensus around that plan. IMHO we should offer this plan, or something else, but something, to Vox, if we still want a wonder.

That one wasn't mine, and I never really cared much for it because it didn't look like a good deal from Vox's perspective. My idea was to give Vox an excellent ongoing price for techs throughout the time the Great Library was active, plus an up-front credit counted toward that price.

	12-02-2003 23:46									#15
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Yeah, but giving 300 virtual gold per worker, when techs would cost 100 gold each doesn't sound like a good deal for us, Nathan. At least I tried to bring the non-aggression issue onto the tech trade table, I can imagine you didn't like the original deal, but you never commented on that part either.

DeepO

	13-02-2003 00:44									#16
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I was thinking 300 total for two workers, not 300 per. If I remember right, that was rougly equivalent to Republic and an early medieval tech.

The problem I see with offering Vox a temporary peace treaty is that it could easily be viewed as a step backward from their current hopes for a genuine long-term partnership. It would tend to focus their attention on the idea that we are likely to attack as soon as they're no longer of sufficient value to us, and we've already seen that an insecure Vox is an unstable Vox.

Just to illustrate my point (and since I'm having a hard time deciding what to do about the situation in any case), I'll go ahead and make you an offer in the Euro-PBEM game (and this is an official offer). If you move your spearmen out of my way so I can start settling south of the chokepoint, I'll promise not to start a war with you (barring serious, willful provocation on your part) for the next forty turns.

Now, the question is, to what extent does that offer make you feel more secure, and to what extent does that offer make you feel like you're likely to be killed off in just a little over forty turns?

Nathan

	13-02-2003 00:50									#17
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I play the turn now. No techs offered by Vox.

Team Scores:

90 (+2) Gathering Storm
100 (+2) Demogyptica
78 (+2) Glory of War
96 (+1) Role Play
74 (+1) Vox Controli
72 (+1) Lux Invicta
111 (+2) Legoland

	13-02-2003 00:51									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I lack military orders. I would fortify the Spearman in Hurricane and move the warrior from Hurricane to Bolderberg. Objections?

	13-02-2003 00:57									#19
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

How about moving the spearman from Hurricane to EotS and the warrior from EotS to Bolderberg? That way our warriors on the front lines against possible barbs are all regulars that might get promotions they can keep after being upgraded, and the vet warrior stays in the city with the barracks that can upgrade him.

	13-02-2003 01:02									#20
	Support Apolyton

Hmmm... There's also a point to fortify the spearman and leave the warrior at the right flank to protect the workers around Hurricane. We have enough fog of war in the coastal mountains, there may show up barbarian horsemen. What do you think?

	13-02-2003 01:03									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph No techs offered by Vox.

Let's not jump to conclusions. Looking at Trip's latest thread in the PtW forum (here), we can see that Vox has nearly the least active team, only second to GoW, and have the lowest number of threads in their forum by a far margin. To quote the stats:

quote: Forum Posts Threads C3PtWDG Lux Invicta 2554 247 C3PtWDG Gathering Storm 7947 215 C3PtWDG Glory of War 1687 117 C3PtWDG Legoland 2596 120 C3PtWDG Roleplay 6514 315 C3PtWDG Vox Controli 2096 68 Average posts-per-thread: Forum Posts/Thread C3PtWDG Lux Invicta 10.34 C3PtWDG Gathering Storm 36.96 C3PtWDG Glory of War 14.41 C3PtWDG Legoland 21.63 C3PtWDG Roleplay 20.68 C3PtWDG Vox Controli 30.82

So, chances are that they're just slow thinkers. They play their turns fast and without putting much thought into them, and save up their time on the counter for a "rainy day"... but apparently, they never use it when the need for that time comes, as if they're saving it for a rainier day . Well, Vox aren't exactly the brightest kids in the block...

	13-02-2003 01:07									#22
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Beakers left to research (DeepO's request):

Writing: 30 of 192 (researching right now)
Mathematics: 192 of 192
Warrior Code: 66 of 72 (Vox)
Mysticism: 88 of 96 (Vox)

That's all what we're able to see this turn.

Advisors: Compared to Vox, we have a strong military. The best Voxian unit we know is the Warrior.

	13-02-2003 01:08									#23
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I'd rather use the spearman to protect the worker, since in that situation, the barbarian horseman would have the initiative. That won't be an issue after the worker moves, but at the moment, there is a place a barb could surprise attack the worker from without being seen first. Good catch noticing the possible danger.

	13-02-2003 01:09									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Hmmm... There's also a point to fortify the spearman and leave the warrior at the right flank to protect the workers around Hurricane. We have enough fog of war in the coastal mountains, there may show up barbarian horsemen. What do you think?

Although I'm pretty sure that barbarian horsemen won't show up until we're in the medieval age (anyway, in my games I always saw barbarian galleys before I saw barbarian horsemen), just to be sure, I think that we should eliminate the FoW 778 of Hurricane, and in the future any other FoW tile that are two movement points away from any of our workers or cities.

	13-02-2003 01:17									#25
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Moving the spearman 4-8 onto the tile a barb horseman would have to cross to hit the worker from in the current fog would serve that purpose nicely. Then a barb horseman would have to expose himself to sight and possible counterattack to get to either Hurricane or the worker. (And on this low a level, I'd rather attack with a vet spearman than a vet warrior, since getting a spearman promoted to elite would be a lot more valuable.)

	13-02-2003 01:17									#26
	Inflate your Upload Space

Barbarian horsemen show up, once one (or two?) civs have Horseback Riding, just like barbarian galleys show up, once one (or two?) civs have Map Making. The main continent should already be close to both.

	13-02-2003 01:21									#27
	Got spare money?

Nathans Spearman move makes sense. Objections? If no, let's go ahead with the turn.

	13-02-2003 01:21									#28
	Put an end to popups!

Perhaps later we should ask our friends abroad if they've met any such resistance.

	13-02-2003 01:24									#29
	Increase Your PM Length

We know from Vox that multiple civs already have Horseback Riding. We may want to go ahead and get rid of the fog of war in the far south since we have a worker by Cyclone that could be threatened if barb horsemen show up.

	13-02-2003 01:26									#30
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On second thoght, we can't deal with the fog of war in such a way as not to leave either Cyclone or its worker vulnerable at least temporarily.